Bloomberg on the proposed Muslim community center

Cerise

Well-Known Member
Why do all the arguments against Park 51 rely on made up crap?

It's funny how blatantly the right just sprints towards fascism when they get any chance.


The issue is whether or not the Ground Zero imam is a moderate.

I have posted several links pointing to the fact that by the behavior he demonstrates he is not. :shrug:
 

2minkey

bootlicker
i think you're the only one that you've convinced. but, then, if you saw a story about a muslim couple enjoying a nice dinner together, you would conclude that they were discussing plans to blow up innocent christian babies. what you've been posting in this thread could be readily shredded by any 7th grade debate team. at this point you're like greenpeace activists - so unrealistically out there that you undermine any credibility you might have had.
 

spike

New Member
I have posted several links pointing to the fact that by the behavior he demonstrates he is not. :shrug:

Everything you've posted so far has made him look very reasonable and moderate.

You however, come off as a radical extremist with your thoughts of executing people based on religion.

Tell me Cerise, are you cheering on all the new terrorism against Muslims or denouncing it?
 

Cerise

Well-Known Member
Why do you and your 7th grade debate team choose to ignore these facts?

In a taped speech, Rauf made a number of comments that would make anyone who is not concerned about the mosque at the Ground Zero site rethink their support for the man tasked with heading the "bridge-building" center. Among them [click on the play button to hear each one]:


>that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has....

>The United States has supported authoritarian regimes, and it's understandable that people in those nations would take action into their own hands....

>Asked why Muslims commit suicide bombings, Rauf belittled the fanatical religious motivation of such attacks and said:

>On Israel, Rauf said he does not favor the plan to establish a Palestinian state along with Israel.....

>"And when we observe terrorism....we can see that they were target political objectives."

Out of his own mouth in 2005. Such a moderate.

:rolleyes:
 

2minkey

bootlicker
LOL you're still undermining yourself.

the US DOES have more muslim blood on it's hands. at least 100,000 people have died in iraq. that is fact. he is a terrorist for simply understanding facts?

and, BTW, the US has a long history of supporting oppressive regimes. batista, somosa, the saudi royal family, mubarek, the shah of iran, the list goes on and on. we've had a long history of supporting whomever so long as they were not commies. i must be a terrorist too because i am aware of these facts.

he is a terrorist because he explains why he thinks people become suicide bombers? shit, most of the psychologists in the US must be terrorists because they've also speculated on that one. even the ones that work for the CIA! all terrorists!!!!!

because he favors one state rather than a two-state solution for the israeli-palestinian issue?

fuck, you've mentioned terrorism so many times here... YOU MUST BE A TERRORIST!!!!
:retard:
sorry, honey, but you just can't pull anything coherent together here.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
it doesn't mean anything other than that i have decent reading comprehension, some knowledge of history, and can evaluate things without ideological blinders.
 

valkyrie

Well-Known Member
I won't be responding in this thread anymore.
It's become Totally useless.
The same question over and over.
Then just dismissed, and it starts over yet again.:retard:
I don't mean to dismiss your posts, cat. I never saw an answer to what I had asked. I apologize if you answered my question and I didn't see it. There's been a lot of trolling in this and other threads so it's been hard to keep up with the debate.

I suppose my position on this is as so...
If we can prevent these Muslims from opening their mosque and community center then the same can be done to other religions.

This country has a firm foot in "freedom of religion." The 1st Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The Muslims have every right, by law, to open their Mosque and religious based community center. Same as the Christians. :shrug:
 

2minkey

bootlicker
no val he just gave up because there wasn't anything to support his suspicions. but, cerise has done a fine job at deflating that boat, anyway, so no need to worry.
 

ResearchMonkey

Well-Known Member
Imam Feisal Abdel Rauf claims that the U.S. constitution is Sharia compliant. Now let us examine below a few laws of Sharia to see how truthful Imam Rauf is:

1- Jihad, defined as “to war against non-Muslims to establish the religion,” is the duty of every Muslim and Muslim head of state (Caliph). Muslim Caliphs who refuse jihad are in violation of Sharia and unfit to rule.

2- A Caliph can hold office through seizure of power meaning through force.

3- A Caliph is exempt from being charged with serious crimes such as murder, adultery, robbery, theft, drinking and in some cases of rape.

4- A percentage of Zakat (charity money) must go towards jihad.

5- It is obligatory to obey the commands of the Caliph, even if he is unjust.

6- A caliph must be a Muslim, a non-slave and a male.

7- The Muslim public must remove the Caliph if he rejects Islam.

8- A Muslim who leaves Islam must be killed immediately.

9- A Muslim will be forgiven for murder of: 1) an apostate 2) an adulterer 3) a highway robber. Vigilante street justice and honor killing is acceptable.

10- A Muslim will not get the death penalty if he kills a non-Muslim, but will get it for killing a Muslim.

11- Sharia never abolished slavery, sexual slavery and highly regulates it. A master will not be punished for killing his slave.

12- Sharia dictates death by stoning, beheading, amputation of limbs, flogging even for crimes of sin such as adultery.

13- Non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims under the law. They must comply to Islamic law if they are to remain safe. They are forbidden to marry Muslim women, publicly display wine or pork, recite their scriptures or openly celebrate their religious holidays or funerals. They are forbidden from building new churches or building them higher than mosques. They may not enter a mosque without permission. A non-Muslim is no longer protected if he leads a Muslim away from Islam.

14- It is a crime for a non-Muslim to sell weapons to someone who will use them against Muslims. Non-Muslims cannot curse a Muslim, say anything derogatory about Allah, the Prophet, or Islam, or expose the weak points of Muslims. But Muslims can curse non-Muslims.

15- A non-Muslim cannot inherit from a Muslim.

16- Banks must be Sharia compliant and interest is not allowed.

17- No testimony in court is acceptable from people of low-level jobs, such as street sweepers or bathhouse attendants. Women in low level jobs such as professional funeral mourners cannot keep custody of their children in case of divorce.

18- A non-Muslim cannot rule — even over a non-Muslim minority.

19- Homosexuality is punishable by death.

20- There is no age limit for marriage of girls. The marriage contract can take place anytime after birth and can be consummated at age 8 or 9.

21- Rebelliousness on the part of the wife nullifies the husband’s obligation to support her, gives him permission to beat her and keep her from leaving the home.

22- Divorce is only in the hands of the husband and is as easy as saying: “I divorce you” and becomes effective even if the husband did not intend it.

23- There is no community property between husband and wife and the husband’s property does not automatically go to the wife after his death.

24- A woman inherits half what a man inherits.

25- A man has the right to have up to 4 wives and none of them have a right to divorce him — even if he is polygamous.

26- The dowry is given in exchange for the woman’s sexual organs.

27- A man is allowed to have sex with slave women and women captured in battle, and if the enslaved woman is married her marriage is annulled.

28- The testimony of a woman in court is half the value of a man.

29- A woman loses custody if she remarries.

30- To prove rape, a woman must have 4 male witnesses.

31- A rapist may only be required to pay the bride-money (dowry) without marrying the rape victim.

32- A Muslim woman must cover every inch of her body, which is considered “Awrah,” a sexual organ. Not all Sharia schools allow the face of a woman exposed.

33- A Muslim man is forgiven if he kills his wife at the time he caught her in the act of adultery. However, the opposite is not true for women, since the man “could be married to the woman he was caught with.”

34-It is obligatory for a Muslim to lie if the purpose is obligatory. That means that for the sake of abiding with Islam’s commandments, such as jihad, a Muslim is obliged to lie and should not have any feelings of guilt or shame associated with this kind of lying.

The above are clear-cut laws in Islam decided by great Imams after years of examination and interpretation of the Quran, Hadith and Mohammed’s life. Now let the learned Imam Rauf tell us: What part of the above is compliant with the U.S. Constitution?


Sharia for Dummies

sharia.jpg


 

2minkey

bootlicker
let's see a link/quote to him discussing the constitutional compliance of sharia.

why do you care anyway? i saw a bunch things on that list that you're already in favor of. or maybe you're upset because they're more conservative than you?
 

spike

New Member
I see the problem. Your going by a fear mongering radical extremist site for you understanding of Sharia.

It be like if someone picked out all the most fucked up rules in christianity and portrayed that as everyday christian values. That's easy enough to do.

Here's just a little Leviticus ( I don't think it's compatible with the Constitution):

# Only unblemished males are to be killed and offered to God. Females don't even make good burnt offerings. 1:3, 10

# When a king sins only the best sacrifice will do -- he must offer a male goat to God. But if a commoner sins, a female will do. 4:22-28

# "If any one of the common people sin through ignorance ... then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned." If a common person sins through ignorance, then kill a female goat. (More important people must kill male goats.) 4:27-28

# "He shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD ... a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats."
If you touch an insect, dead animal, or "the uncleanness of man" or if you swear to do something good or bad (5:2-4), kill a female lamb or goat for God. (A female will do since it's a minor offense.) 5:6

# "She shall be unclean."
Women are dirty and sinful after childbirth, so God prescribes rituals for their purification. (And baby girls make them twice as sinful and dirty as baby boys do.) 12:1-5

# "If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days ... And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days."
If a boy is born, the mother is unclean for 7 days and must be purified for 33 days. 12:2, 4

# "But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks ... and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days."
If a girl is born, the mother is unclean for 14 days and be purified for 66 days. This is because, in the eyes of God, girls are twice as dirty as boys. 12:5

# "She shall bring a lamb ... for a burnt offering, and... a young pigeon, or dove, for a sin offering."
After a woman gives birth, a priest must kill a lamb, pigeon, or dove as a sin offering. This is because having children is sinful and God likes it when things are killed for him. 12:6

# "She shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood." 12:7

# "if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons ... and she shall be clean." 12:8

# "The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even." 15:18

# "If a woman have an issue, and her issue ... be blood..." (God's law for menstruating women)
They are unclean and sinful. Anthing that they touch is unclean. Anyone who touches anything that they touch is unclean. Stay completely away from them. (And for God's sake, don't even think about having sex with them!) 15:19-30, 33

# "If a woman have an issue, and her issue... be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even." 15:19

# "And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean." 15:20

# "And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even." 15:21

# "Whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall ... be unclean until the even." 15:22

# "And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even." 15:23

# "If any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean." 1524:

# "If a woman have an issue of her blood ... she shall be unclean." 15:25

# "Every bed whereon she lieth ... and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean." 15:26

# "Whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean." 15:27

# "But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean."
Women are unclean while mestruating and for seven days after bleeding has stopped. 15:28

# "On the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons ... for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness." 15:29-30

# "This is the law of him that hath an issue, and of him whose seed goeth from him ... And of her that is sick of her flowers, and of him that hath an issue, of the man, and of the woman, and of him that lieth with her that is unclean." 15:32-33

# A man who has sex with a menstruating woman "shall be unclean seven days." 15:24

# "Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is apart for her uncleanness," Don't even look at a menstruating woman. 18:19

# If a man has sex with an engaged slave woman, scourge the woman, but don't punish the man. (Even if he raped her?) 19:20-22

# If a man has sex with his father's wife, kill them both. 20:11

# If a man has sex with his daughter in law, kill them both. 20:12

# If a man has sex with his wife and her mother (now that sounds like fun!), burn to death all three. 20:14

# If a woman "lies with a beast" both the woman and the animal are to be killed. 20:15

# If a man has sex with a menstruating woman, they both "shall be cut off from among their people." 20:18

# Women with "familiar spirits" are to be stoned to death. 20:27

# Priests can't marry "whores", "profane", or divorced women. Why? Because "he is holy unto his God" and they would defile him. 21:7

# A priest's daughter who "plays the whore" is to be burned to death. 21:9

# A priest can only marry a virgin. No harlots, widows, or divorced women will do. (God really likes virgins.) 21:13-14

# If a priest's daughter marries "a stranger" she can't eat any holy things. 22:12

# "Ye shall offer ... a male without blemish ... Blind, or broken, or maimed, or having a wen, or scurvy, or scabbed, ye shall not offer these unto the LORD ... Ye shall not offer unto the LORD that which is bruised, or crushed, or broken, or cut."
God wants us to kill lots of animals for him. Not just any animals, though. God only wants dead, male animals without any blemishes. 22:19-24

# God defines the value of human life in dollars and cents. Of course, to God, females are worth considerably less than males (50 - 60%) -- but neither are worth much. 27:3-7
 

ResearchMonkey

Well-Known Member
why do you care anyway? i saw a bunch things on that list that you're already in favor of. or maybe you're upset because they're more conservative than you?
Are making shit up you or just trolling again? ©spike


Spike we all know, for a Catholic, you don't know shit about Christianity. You're irrelevant in that respect. BUT, while we are a nation built upon JudeoChristian values, we are not governed by Biblical law whereas Islam demand the government to be ruled under sharia.

I know you can't help it, your hatred of Christian morality just kills you. Your point is invalid. Please try harder.


1283195466139.jpg
 

spike

New Member
Spike we all know, for a Catholic, you don't know shit about Christianity.

Actually I know more about Christianity then you likely ever will.

BUT, while we are a nation built upon JudeoChristian values, we are not governed by Biblical law whereas Islam demand the government to be ruled under sharia.

In reality we're not built on JudeoChristian values. We're built on enlightenment values.

No we are not governed by biblical law or sharia law and it looks lik most christians and muslims are fine with that. Some christians and muslims would like us to be governed by religious law though.

I know you can't help it, your hatred of Christian morality just kills you.

I don't hate Christian morality, you however have displayed tremendous irrational bigotry against Muslims.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,— as it has in itself no character or enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,— and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. - Treaty of Tripoli
 

ResearchMonkey

Well-Known Member
Actually I know more about Christianity then you likely ever will.
No you don't. You constantly quote old testament, something happened to change ALL of that. Can you guess what that was?


We're built on enlightenment values.
I'm impressed you actually hung onto something Minx said, GOOD JOB!. I just don't think you or minx grasp the entire concepts being promoted here.


founded on the Christian Religion
Correct, we have no state sponsored religion however the United States was founded on the JudeoChristian values.

Let me help you word-clear the difference.

found 1 (found)tr.v. found·ed, found·ing, founds
1. To establish or set up, especially with provision for continuing existence.

val·ue (v
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l
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)n.
4. A principle, standard, or quality considered worthwhile or desirable.

tr.v. val·ued, val·u·ing, val·ues
2. To regard highly. See Synonyms at appreciate.
We do not value the oppressive and violent Sharia law in the United States but we do value the JudeoChristian Value system in the United States.



I don't hate Christian morality, you however have displayed tremendous irrational bigotry against Muslims.
Oh Lord, you couldn't tell a bigger lie. You have a seething hatred of anything Christan, just the word offends you. You don't ever miss an opportunity to bash it.

You are supporting Islam, you support a blood-thirsty 7th century religion that is at the heart of every war being waged on the planet.

I think you only value Islam in an attempt to devalue the Christian morality that has for so long has condemned your personal values, or lack thereof.

rkdjbo.jpg

 

spike

New Member
No you don't. You constantly quote old testament, something happened to change ALL of that. Can you guess what that was?

Nothing changed all that. Some Christian sects choose not to emphasize it probably because it's so ridiculous but Jesus was certainly into it. Many other sects still teach from the Old Testament. Like the Muslim religion it kinda depends on the sect, country, culture, etc.

"Jesus believed that the Old Testament was divinely inspired, the veritable Word of God. He said, "The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35). He referred to Scripture as "the commandment of God" (Matthew 15:3) and as the "Word of God" (Matthew 15:6). He also indicated that it was indestructible: "Until Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the law, until all is accomplished" (Matthew 5:18). Notice that he mentions even the words and letters!

When dealing with the people of His day, whether it was with the disciples or religious rulers, Jesus constantly referred to the Old Testament: "Have you not read that which was spoken to you by God?" (Matthew 22:31); "Yea; and have you never read, 'Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes thou hast prepared praise for thyself'?" (Matthew 21:16, citing Psalm 8:2); and "Have you not read what David did?" (Matthew 12:3). Examples could be multiplied to demonstrate that Jesus was conversant with the Old Testament and its content. He quoted from it often and He trusted it totally."


http://www.greatcom.org/resources/reasons_skeptics/ch_06/default.htm

I'd be glad to quote ridiculous stuff from the New Testament too though. There's no shortage or anything.

I just don't think you or minx grasp the entire concepts being promoted here.

The concept being that you are ignoring all facts.

Correct, we have no state sponsored religion however the United States was founded on the JudeoChristian values.

No, enlightenment values.


We do not value the oppressive and violent Sharia law in the United States but we do value the JudeoChristian Value system in the United States.

In reality Sharia Law and Biblical Law in general are not violent or oppressive. Both Sharia and Biblical law can be interpreted in a violent and oppressive way depending on your sect, country, culture, etc.

In the United States we don't favor one religion over another. It's a core AMerican value.


Oh Lord, you couldn't tell a bigger lie. You have a seething hatred of anything Christan, just the word offends you. You don't ever miss an opportunity to bash it.

You are supporting Islam, you support a blood-thirsty 7th century religion that is at the heart of every war being waged on the planet.

Ah, making up more crap. I'm not a fan of religion in general but I don't hate either of them. Both can be peaceful and both can be bloodthirsty. It's the bigots that think their religion is superior to others that cause most of the problems.

I think you only value Islam in an attempt to devalue the Christian morality that has for so long has condemned your personal values, or lack thereof.


My personal values are pretty in line with most of Jesus' teachings. You however don't seem to have much use for them and instead align yourself towards hatred and cheer for things like 100s of thousands of dead civilians that someone following Jesus' teachings would certainly condemn.
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
both bastardized versions of their original intent. Thanks for proving my point for me.

What specifically is wrong with the YW/YMCA?
The YMCA's traditional symbol is the inverted triangle which represents the organization's three principles. It was created in 1891 by Luther Halsey Gulick, Jr. at Springfield College.[9] The three principles are as follows.

Healthy spirit
The first YMCA was concerned with Bible study, although the organization has generally moved on to a more holistic approach to youth work. Around six years after its birth, an international YMCA conference in Paris decided that the objective of the organization should become "Christian discipleship developed through a program of religious, educational, social and physical activities" (Binfield 1973:265). More recent objectives as found on the YMCA UK website include no reference to discipleship.
Restore Ministries of the YMCA of Middle Tennessee provides an example of how the Christian influence in the YMCA still exists today.[10] Founded in 2000 by Scott Reall, Restore provides support groups and individual counseling with an aim of “lifting the ‘C’” (of the YMCA).[11]

Healthy mind
Many colleges and universities owe their creation to the YMCA. Springfield College was founded in 1885 as an international training school for YMCA Professionals, while Sir George Williams University—one of the two schools that eventually became Concordia University—started from night courses offered at the Montreal YMCA. Northeastern University (Boston, Massachusetts) began out of a YMCA in Boston, and Franklin University began as the YMCA School of Commerce. Detroit College of Law, now the Michigan State University College of Law, was founded with a strong connection to the Detroit, Michigan YMCA. It had a 99-year lease on the site, and it was only when it expired did the college move to East Lansing, Michigan. YMCA pioneered the concept of night school, providing educational opportunities for people with full-time employment. Many YMCAs offer ESL programs, alternative high school, day care, and summer camp programs.
American high school students have a chance to participate in YMCA Youth and Government, wherein clubs of kids representing each YMCA community convene annually in their respective state legislatures to "take over the State Capitol for a day." YMCA Youth and Government helps teens learn about and participate in civics in a real-world setting.

Healthy body
In 1891, James Naismith, a Canadian, invented basketball while studying at the YMCA International Training School in Springfield, Massachusetts (later to be named Springfield College). Naismith had been asked to invent a new game in a desperate attempt to interest pupils in physical exercise. The game had to be interesting, easy to learn, and easy to play indoors in winter. Such an activity was needed both by the Training School and by YMCAs across the country. It was a success from the very first game. Naismith and his wife attended the 1936 Summer Olympics when basketball became one of the Olympic events. In 1895, William G. Morgan from the YMCA of Holyoke, Massachusetts, invented the sport of volleyball as a slower paced alternative sport, which the older Y members could participate in. In 1930, Juan Carlos Ceriani from the YMCA of Montevideo, Uruguay, invented the sport of futsal as a synthesis of three indoor sports, handball, basketball, and water polo, maintaining the motivation of the sport foot-ball (soccer) on playgrounds reduced.
 
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