2minkey
bootlicker
me too and i'm fine as well. other than the perversions, of course.
Another war we're losing....
- Thread starter markjs
- Start date
me too and i'm fine as well. other than the perversions, of course.
markjs
Banned
That particular statistic is quite misleading, I can't seem to find it but a more comprehensive study showed that while initial success rates are indeed low, that many who stick with it and try again find a much higher rate of success. Most people don't get it on the first try and that's all that the study you quoted accounts for.
SouthernN'Proud
Southern Discomfort
So that raises another, related question. And thanks, I've been waiting for someone to say that or closely akin to it.
How many tries do we give these people? How many tries do we give them on the tax dollar, be it prison or medically funded rehab or what have you? Already people are screaming to cut medical benefits to cancer survivors who continue to smoke. We have a progressively harsher legal system in that the more convictions a person has the stiffer the penalty for each successive conviction. Are you going to be the one to tell the weary taxpayer that they'll be expected to fund this for three, four, thirty-six times or until they "get it"? At least if you lock 'em up they'll be assured of either getting it or getting to stay, thus protecting society from them. After a certain point, it becomes the only solution for some people. I know of people who have been to inpatient rehab over thirty times. Tell me they'll ever get it. They can recite every treatment protocol imaginable, and still they use.
I'm sorry, but it's gonna take more than isolated cases to convince me I'm wrong about this. Even blind hogs find a nut now and again. Until I see something that consistently works, quickly and effectively, I'm gonna vote to build more jails. And pardon me for being so blunt about it, but it strikes me that jail is the one deterrent in your own life. Every argument you've made has been so adamantly against jail time, trying to convince people that other means from treatment to legalization is better, that it just seems to me that jail might be unpleasant in your eyes, and therefore not something you wish to re-experience. If that isn't proving its effectiveness then I really am missing something.
But I somehow don't think that I am.
markjs
Banned
Nobody likes jail, but my point is it doesn't begin to solve the problem. It's like as if firemen went to a burning building and their solution was to throw accelerants on it so it will burn faster and more efficiently instead of just putting out the fire to minimize the damages.
I got a DUI as a result of a few county sherrif's deputies that literally set it all up. Aside from a marijuana possesion I never got busted for any other drug related crime (that they knew of). These deputies knew who I was and targeted me specifically (small town). I'm greatful to them now, and whenever I see them around town they never fail to say hi, ask me how I am doing and usually tell me I look like I am in a lot better space than I was in December. So I don't have this extensive criminal record, and never even been in sniffing distance of a felony drug conviction. I don't know about your state but here, if the person who gets busted can afford it (and many who get simple DUIs can) they pay for their own treatment. Those who are indigent can get funding.
Sure Jail is a deterrent for me, but not near as much as the fact that I was losing my mind slowly but surely. You know you've his a new low when you are scraping soda can bottoms for residue to inject out of desparation. Normally I was able to earn my dope by working on computers for dope dealers, but there were lean times when even they didn't have any shit. Regardless, jail is one of the last things on my list of reasons not to get high again. While I was in jail there was nothing but encouragement to get back in the scene and do more dope. In fact when I told people I was done with it, and attended the AA meetings on the inside, every one of those losers told me I'd have a needle in my arm within a week of my release. I was relesed on January 31st at 6am and the first thing I did is go to a meeting. I have never even been close to using since. One of those asholes, my actual "celly", got out and folowed my example and he's been clean since shortly after he got out.
The thing is for most of the meth people I know in jail, and there are a hell of a lot of them in this county, Jail is just a regular part of life, they don't care. They look at it as time to clean up for a few months and eat and catch up on sleep so they can go right back out and start using it again.
I know about a quarter of these people personally, and they are on this roster regularly. Check into the charges, most of them are drugs or alcohol related. Many of them have had prison stays and none of it helps.
I got a DUI as a result of a few county sherrif's deputies that literally set it all up. Aside from a marijuana possesion I never got busted for any other drug related crime (that they knew of). These deputies knew who I was and targeted me specifically (small town). I'm greatful to them now, and whenever I see them around town they never fail to say hi, ask me how I am doing and usually tell me I look like I am in a lot better space than I was in December. So I don't have this extensive criminal record, and never even been in sniffing distance of a felony drug conviction. I don't know about your state but here, if the person who gets busted can afford it (and many who get simple DUIs can) they pay for their own treatment. Those who are indigent can get funding.
Sure Jail is a deterrent for me, but not near as much as the fact that I was losing my mind slowly but surely. You know you've his a new low when you are scraping soda can bottoms for residue to inject out of desparation. Normally I was able to earn my dope by working on computers for dope dealers, but there were lean times when even they didn't have any shit. Regardless, jail is one of the last things on my list of reasons not to get high again. While I was in jail there was nothing but encouragement to get back in the scene and do more dope. In fact when I told people I was done with it, and attended the AA meetings on the inside, every one of those losers told me I'd have a needle in my arm within a week of my release. I was relesed on January 31st at 6am and the first thing I did is go to a meeting. I have never even been close to using since. One of those asholes, my actual "celly", got out and folowed my example and he's been clean since shortly after he got out.
The thing is for most of the meth people I know in jail, and there are a hell of a lot of them in this county, Jail is just a regular part of life, they don't care. They look at it as time to clean up for a few months and eat and catch up on sleep so they can go right back out and start using it again.
I know about a quarter of these people personally, and they are on this roster regularly. Check into the charges, most of them are drugs or alcohol related. Many of them have had prison stays and none of it helps.
chcr
Too cute for words
That particular statistic is quite misleading, I can't seem to find it but a more comprehensive study showed that while initial success rates are indeed low, that many who stick with it and try again find a much higher rate of success. Most people don't get it on the first try and that's all that the study you quoted accounts for.
Most people don't get it on the third or fourth try. Sooner or later they figure out that they're going to die if they don't stop so they stop (some of them anyway) and AA (or whoever, they're far from the only ones) says, "See, we helped him."
Why do you suppose you can't find that "more" comprehensive study then?
markjs
Banned
Most people don't get it on the third or fourth try. Sooner or later they figure out that they're going to die if they don't stop so they stop (some of them anyway) and AA (or whoever, they're far from the only ones) says, "See, we helped him."
Why do you suppose you can't find that "more" comprehensive study then?
Pretty much because people are more interested in debunking AA than supporting it. Add in the fact that AA by it's very nature doesn't keep any serious statistics. I have never seen anyone who sincerely did the things the program suggests that didn't stay sober. Trouble is few will sincerely try until their balls are against the wall.
SouthernN'Proud
Southern Discomfort
Then that tells me two things. One, we need to lock 'em up longer. Two, we need to get them off their ass, out of the cell, and busy either picking up trash or turning big rocks into little rocks.
I heard a piece on Paul Harvey's show several years ago, and I'd dearly love to have a transcript of it, addressing this very thing. The piece, which for all I know was as contrived as all those annoying emails we all get that are supposed to sound genuine and original, made more sense than anything I've ever heard on the subject. It compared two sets of daily living conditions and activities. One was miserable, the other was quite sufferable. The miserable one was the typical day of a US army soldier on deployment, the other was a jail inmate. The piece concluded with the assertation that until we started treating our soldiers better than our prisoners we can expect a lesser version of our armed forces, and that until we started treating our prisoners in a more realistic and appropriate manner, such as no TVs, no gyms, no luxuries of any kind, etc and make them work or that day doesn't count, we can expect an increased level of crime. In short, we should make military service more appealing than jail time. Wish I had that transcript, I've thought about it hundreds of times over the years.
markjs
Banned
Chain gangs have proven no more effective at reducing recidivism than anything else. What has proven very effective are prisons that are actual businesses and train prisoners in trades that they can use on the outside, but then that screws with making it "punishment" and makes it more "rehabilitation". So screw what works, lets just eek out maximum vengance on criminals.....Right?
chcr
Too cute for words
M'kay.
SouthernN'Proud
Southern Discomfort
Let me reiterate.
After a certain point, rehabilitation is not my primary focus. Nor is recovery. Nor is recidivism. If after enough times some idiot still don't get it, in my world you have outlived your usefullness to a productive society. After a certain point I am less concerned what happens to some burnout and more concerned about making sure he can never get fubared and kill me or my family in a car wreck or never be the one to try and peddle dope to my daughter. There comes a time. If after ample opportunity said burnout still cannot find it within him/herself to control their own behavior I am more than happy to control it for them. I will do so by limiting their movements, interractions, and access to the general public, myself and my family included. I want to be perfectly clear on that. I'm all for trying to help someone. I draw the line when that person spits in my face. Continuing to engage in the behaviors being discussed here is spit in my face. Do so at your own peril. So I really could not possibly care less if Jim Dopehead is on his 8th tour of the local pokey and thinks it's funny; if I had the keys to the place he'd rot in that 6X9. While I sold tickets to watch him rot. Let there be no mistake on that. Help someone, yes. By all means. Have that person make a mockery of it, not no but hell no. If that makes me vengeful, so be it. I didn't put a gun to their head or a needle in their arm.
As far as job training goes, yes, by all means. Until. If you've been in enough times to take every course available and start through the second time, it's right obvious to me that you ain't gonna work no matter if I taught you how to crack safes for a living. That's when you get real acquainted with a sledgehammer. While I laugh at you and again sell tickets to watch you make little rocks out of big rocks. Help yes; enable no.
After a certain point, rehabilitation is not my primary focus. Nor is recovery. Nor is recidivism. If after enough times some idiot still don't get it, in my world you have outlived your usefullness to a productive society. After a certain point I am less concerned what happens to some burnout and more concerned about making sure he can never get fubared and kill me or my family in a car wreck or never be the one to try and peddle dope to my daughter. There comes a time. If after ample opportunity said burnout still cannot find it within him/herself to control their own behavior I am more than happy to control it for them. I will do so by limiting their movements, interractions, and access to the general public, myself and my family included. I want to be perfectly clear on that. I'm all for trying to help someone. I draw the line when that person spits in my face. Continuing to engage in the behaviors being discussed here is spit in my face. Do so at your own peril. So I really could not possibly care less if Jim Dopehead is on his 8th tour of the local pokey and thinks it's funny; if I had the keys to the place he'd rot in that 6X9. While I sold tickets to watch him rot. Let there be no mistake on that. Help someone, yes. By all means. Have that person make a mockery of it, not no but hell no. If that makes me vengeful, so be it. I didn't put a gun to their head or a needle in their arm.
As far as job training goes, yes, by all means. Until. If you've been in enough times to take every course available and start through the second time, it's right obvious to me that you ain't gonna work no matter if I taught you how to crack safes for a living. That's when you get real acquainted with a sledgehammer. While I laugh at you and again sell tickets to watch you make little rocks out of big rocks. Help yes; enable no.
markjs
Banned
How much AA experience do you have chcr? What do you really know about it? I've searched a lot today on the matter and I've found exactly two studies. One old and outdated, and the one you read, and another newer one that says AA signifigantly improves the chances for recovery. The one that tries to debunk AA is spread around on zillions of anti AA sites, and repeated over and over as if it were the "holy grail" of information on 12 step recovery programs. So you tell me what conclusion would you draw?
SouthernN'Proud
Southern Discomfort
Ain't you glad you ain't got some SOB like me for your PO? 
markjs
Banned
Actually no, I wouldn't give a damn because the last time I was in court my PO told the judge that I have been "absolutely no trouble at all", and that I am one of her absolute favorite cases, because of my sucess, an opinion my treatment director from the agency I do treatment at was in complete agreement with. So therefore it really wouldn't matter if Atilla the Hun were my PO if he was following legal procedure, I'd have not a thing to worry about.
SouthernN'Proud
Southern Discomfort
Except having to endure my never-ending string of bullshit...
I sleep well at night. I tell these people what the Court expects, and what I expect. I explain everything and answer every question; if I don't know the answer I tell them that and I go find it. I tell them up front: one positive drug test and you get to go talk to the judge. No ifs, ands or buts. If he turns you loose I'm OK with it; if he locks you up I'm OK with it. From that point forward, it's on them. Do what is expected and we'll have zero problem. I don't jump ass just for the sake of assjumping. Mess up the little stuff and we'll work it out between us. Mess up the biggies and you get to see the man they pay to wear a black robe and who drives a much nicer car than I do. But none of it will be taken personally by me. It's your life and your chance to stay out; do with it as you will. I'm little more than an interested observor. Generally, that approach works pretty good. I'd say over 90% of the people I do end up filing violations on stand up in Court and tell the judge it was their mistake, not me trying to "get" them.
I sleep well at night. I tell these people what the Court expects, and what I expect. I explain everything and answer every question; if I don't know the answer I tell them that and I go find it. I tell them up front: one positive drug test and you get to go talk to the judge. No ifs, ands or buts. If he turns you loose I'm OK with it; if he locks you up I'm OK with it. From that point forward, it's on them. Do what is expected and we'll have zero problem. I don't jump ass just for the sake of assjumping. Mess up the little stuff and we'll work it out between us. Mess up the biggies and you get to see the man they pay to wear a black robe and who drives a much nicer car than I do. But none of it will be taken personally by me. It's your life and your chance to stay out; do with it as you will. I'm little more than an interested observor. Generally, that approach works pretty good. I'd say over 90% of the people I do end up filing violations on stand up in Court and tell the judge it was their mistake, not me trying to "get" them.
Prison is to punish. Not to rehab. Not to educate. Not to train.
You guys want your free healthcare (which isn't free) and you want to educate Chester the Molester. Piss on that. Shoot Chester. Education is for those that pursue it. The rest can dig ditches.
30 years of nicotine addiction. Am I addict enough to join your club? (clean for almost 4 years)
markjs
Banned
Typical, conservative live in the problem not in the solution mentality. And you wonder why as soon as a criminal is realeased they commit more crime.
No ciggarette addiction is not even close.
Professur
Well-Known Member
Wrong. If you'd done half the 'studying' you claim, you'd know it's the same biological mechanism in both cases.
chcr
Too cute for words
I know dozens if not hundreds of alcoholics and reformed alcoholics. I played guitar in bars for 25 years. I've been an AA sponsor, I've seen AA help people and fail to help people. It's the people, and not the AA that makes the difference. Why are so many recovering addicts so self-righteously defensive about it? I read three different studies twenty years ago (I was sponsoring two friends at the time and one pointed out that he'd decided it was bullshit) and so started going to the meetings myself. I stopped recommending it to people and drew my own conclusions. Put it this way. If you want to stop you'll stop, regardless of "steps" or "programming" or whatever. If you don't want to stop you won't. You are in control of yourself (whether or not you want to believe it). It's simply a matter of being able to exercise said control. I understand that some people can't and need help to be able to do this. AA doesn't even try to help, IMO. These are simply opinions Mark. I understand that you have a different one. It's wrong, of course, but I'll understand if you feel differently.
Just as an aside, the "bullshit" guy never drank again to my knowledge. Still plays bass in bars around Tucson too.
Edit: BTW, one huge problem I have with AA type programs is that there are, in fact, recovered addicts and/or alcoholics, not just recovering ones.