Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says Americans

[FredFlash]

Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says Americans United
​

Wednesday, March 28, 2007

Politicians Should Stick To Legislating And Leave Decisions About Religion To Individual Americans, Says AU's Lynn

A group of U.S. lawmakers that today urged Americans to get “back to prayer” should stop meddling in religion and get back to work, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

At noon, U.S. Rep. J. Randy Forbes (R-Va.) and congressional allies held a press conference at the Capitol to “officially call America back to prayer and encourage people to sign up to pray for our nation for five minutes each week.”

Said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, Americans United executive director, “Lawmakers should stick to their constitutional duties and leave religious decisions to individuals. Congressional meddling in religion is an affront to the First Amendment principle of church-state separation. Religion is too important to become a political football.”

Lynn noted that the nation’s Founding Fathers were against mixing religion and government.

James Madison, often referred to as the Father of the Constitution, noted in 1788, “There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle with religion. Its least interference with it, would be a most flagrant usurpation.”

“There are a host of political issues of utmost importance to Americans,” said Lynn. “Rep. Forbes and other members of Congress should work on those and leave decisions about religion to the American people.”

Americans United is a religious liberty watchdog group based in Washington, D.C. Founded in 1947, the organization educates Americans about the importance of church-state separation in safeguarding religious freedom.

au.org/site/News2?abbr=pr&page=NewsArticle&id=8989&security=1002&news_iv_ctrl=1241&JServSessionIdr005=gw90lvcgr4.app5b

 

[2minkey]

lousy communists.

 

[Leslie]

Relax, says Frankie.

 

[2minkey]

but i really wanna get upset and go into an imaginary commie-bashing frenzy. *ergh....*

 

[Gonz]

You know, I think what people misunderstand is the United States was founded by a group of people who left a nation whose law said Church of England or else. The Founding Fathers had a myriad of beliefs. They didn't want a national religion nor did they want a secular nation.

The first amendment is quite clear in its wording. It does not condone THE GOVERNMENT to tell folks how, or what, to believe. It does allow those people to be free to believe as they choose. Whether one is a Senator or a nursemaid, you don't lose you inherent right to practice as you see fit just because you are on public lands.

 

[2minkey]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

You know, I think what people misunderstand is the United States was founded by a group of people who left a nation whose law said Church of England or else.

who is this group of people? did they write the constitution? were they feeling particularly oppressed by the church o'england? how relevant were the religious conditions in england to the writers of the constitution?

 

[FredFlash]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

You know, I think what people misunderstand is the United States was founded by a group of people who left a nation whose law said Church of England or else.

Almost none of the men who framed the U. S. Constitution left Great Britain to come to the American Colonies. Almost all of them were born in America.

 

[FredFlash]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

They didn't want a national religion nor did they want a secular nation.

So why did they adopt a Godless Constitution which exempted religion from the cognizance of the civil government?

 

[FredFlash]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

The first amendment is quite clear in its wording.

The First Amendment is ambiguous and there is good evidence that such was the intent of Congress.

 

[FredFlash]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

you don't lose you inherent right to practice as you see fit just because you are on public lands.

You do if you are an agent of the civil authority and you are assuming authority over the religion of the people.

 

[Gonz]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

Almost none of the men who framed the U. S. Constitution left Great Britain to come to the American Colonies. Almost all of them were born in America.

I'm glad you & minkey are so literal in this.

So why did they adopt a Godless Constitution which exempted religion from the cognizance of the civil government?

The Constitution holds up to its end of the bargain...no established state religion.

The First Amendment is ambiguous and there is good evidence that such was the intent of Congress.

You've got to be kidding me!

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Shall make no law...nor prohibit the free exercise thereof. That is not ambiguous.

You do if you are an agent of the civil authority and you are assuming authority over the religion of the people.

Agent of the Civil Authority? Say, where does it say that? By that statement, a deacon could, in time of national emergency, be forced to end his religious teachings/preachings..

The government may not establsih a religon in the name of the state. There is nowhere, save a few judges writings, that says the public lands are not free to host religious icons.

 

[FredFlash]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

The First Amendment is ambiguous and there is good evidence that such was the intent of Congress.

It is ambiguous because the word "religion" had several meanings in 1788 and the founders neglected to define the word.

 

[FredFlash]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

The Constitution holds up to its end of the bargain...no established state religion.

The phrase "no established state religion" is not to be found in the U. S. Constitution.

You've got to be kidding me!

Nope. One of the framers said the amendments were designed to deceive and another said they were intended to be ambiguous.

Shall make no law...nor prohibit the free exercise thereof. That is not ambiguous.

Define the word "law" and the term "free exercise" and explain why you left out the phrase "respecting an establishment of religion?"

Agent of the Civil Authority? Say, where does it say that? By that statement, a deacon could, in time of national emergency, be forced to end his religious teachings/preachings.

Huh? Since when are Church deacons Civil Magistrates?

The government may not establsih a religon in the name of the state.

Define the word "religion" in the First Amendment for us and then explain how you arrived at its meaning.

There is nowhere, save a few judges writings, that says the public lands are not free to host religious icons.

Show us the writings you are talking about.

the public lands are... free to host religious icons.

That all depends on what religious icons are placed there, who put the icons there, any why. If the religious icons were placed on public land by civil authority to influence the religious sentiments of the people, the actions would be a violation of the exemption of religion from the cognizance of civil government, a sinful trespass upon the prerogatives of Jehovah and a violation of the Christian principle that prohibits Caesar from exercising authority over the things that are God's.

 

[Gonz]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

The phrase "no established state religion" is not to be found in the U. S. Constitution.

Neither is Seperation of Church & State.

The rest is nitpicking

Nope. One of the framers said the amendments were designed to deceive and another said they were intended to be ambiguous.

I'd really like to see that. I've never seen anything resembling it. Do you have a source?

 

[2minkey]

hmmm.... yeah right gonz. let's not get to the details or the real situation. let's just be dismissive so we don't have to answer difficult questions. better to kneejerk, it's so much easier, and convenient. and it doesn't upset what big daddy - literal or symbolic - tells us.

 

[FredFlash]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

I'd really like to see that. I've never seen anything resembling it. Do you have a source?

Yes, I have the source and the actual words they wrote. I will post them later.

 

[FredFlash]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

Neither is Seperation of Church & State.

The rest is nitpicking

You sound like a cop after I expose him for a liar.

 

[Gonz]

Since we're not in a court of law or under the tutelage of a professor, common reference is sufficient. It is not important to define what is common knowledge, in this circumstance, since it has no bearing.

the United States was founded by a group of people

minkey, chill. I didn't say the revolution was headed by them. The folks that came here were oppressed. Whther they were Dutch or French or English or Spaniard is irrelevent. Unless you plan on grading my papers, sir, look at the big picture. If I was in pursuit of a degree, I'd be more specific. This is a message board.

 

[Gotholic]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

The Constitution holds up to its end of the bargain...no established state religion.

The phrase "no established state religion" is not to be found in the U. S. Constitution.

It was clearly understood and reaffirmed that the First Amendment would not allow a state religion.

"[T]he clause of the Constitution which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians and Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes and they believe that any portion of power confided to me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly".

Source: Jefferson, Writings, Vol. III, p. 441, to Benjamin Rush on September 23, 1800.

 

[2minkey]

Re: Congressional Meddling In Religion Violates Church-State Separation, Says America

minkey, chill. I didn't say the revolution was headed by them. The folks that came here were oppressed. Whther they were Dutch or French or English or Spaniard is irrelevent. Unless you plan on grading my papers, sir, look at the big picture. If I was in pursuit of a degree, I'd be more specific. This is a message board.

hmmm. okay i'll chill, but could you chill on the 'professor' type references? all i really did was ask you to explain yourself - i wasn't expecting 10 pages, double spaced, in 12 point font at approximately 250 words per page.

and i doubt that you've taken the prerequisite course on postfeminist prosimian pants theory that you'd need to get into my class anyway. :