Patriots may have been cheating!

[markjs]

Report: Patriots accused of spying on Jets' signals during game

Associated Press

NEW YORK -- The NFL is looking into claims a New England Patriots employee was videotaping signals by Jets coaches on New York's sideline during the season opener.

The investigation was first reported by ESPN.com, which said that NFL security confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee during New England's 38-14 victory Sunday. The employee was accused of aiming his camera at the Jets' defensive coaches, who were sending signals out to the players, sources told the Web site.

"The rule is that no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game," the league said in a statement from spokesman Greg Aiello. "Clubs have specifically been reminded in the past that the videotaping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals on the sidelines is prohibited.

"We are looking into whether the Patriots violated this rule."

The story was first reported on the Web site of Jets Confidential, which said the Jets chief of security alerted NFL security about the issue during the game.

"With anything along those lines, those are all league-related matters, and anything that deals with an issue like this or anything on a team-by-team basis, those all go to the league," coach Eric Mangini said in his news conference Monday.

When asked if the Jets had in fact notified the league, he said: "It's all a league matter."

Patriots spokesman Stacey James declined comment. New England cornerback Ellis Hobbs said he was unaware of the controversy, and unwilling to believe his team had cheated.

"We put too many hours in as individuals and a team to have to go out and cheat," he said. "If it's true, obviously, we're in the wrong. But I'm standing behind my team, my coaches. I don't think we do that stuff."

Last November, the Green Bay Packers had an issue with a man wearing a Patriots staff credential and carrying a video camera on the sidelines at Lambeau Field.

Teams are allowed to have a limited number of their own videographers on the sideline during the game, but they must have a credential that authorizes them to shoot video, and wear a yellow vest. But Packers spokesman Jeff Blumb said the person in question didn't have the right credential and wasn't wearing a yellow vest, so Packers security asked him to put away the camera.

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

This story is from ESPN.com's automated news wire. Wire index

Source.

 

[unclehobart]

Any word on what the prescribed penalty for such an infraction is?

 

[Professur]

So what they really need is a guy with eidetic memory and just have him remember the signals ... and compare them with the game tapes.

 

[markjs]

There is some talk of stipping draft picks because the same guy was caught doing it last year versus the Packers. It is absolutely sickening that a team so loaded with talent would do a thing like this, and it speaks to the absolute lack of charcter of Bill Bellichick. I always felt he showed very little class when he got Parvells job and Parcells lost respect for him when that happened. It seems like it might have been deserved.

 

[woodman19_99]

Lack of character my ass. are you honestly telling me that no other team in the league is doing this??? are you friggin kidding me? The only difference is that we got caught doing. I honestly have no problem and fail to see the difference between this and all those pictures that get taken during the game of formations and such which are the shown "real time" to the players on the sideline. How can this be that much worse? It's just a live picture...

 

[unclehobart]

Forget the draft picks. Perhaps the organization needs to have the game in question voided. Nothing like having a W turn into an L to shake the foundations.

 

[Inkara1]

Lack of character my ass. are you honestly telling me that no other team in the league is doing this??? are you friggin kidding me? The only difference is that we got caught doing. I honestly have no problem and fail to see the difference between this and all those pictures that get taken during the game of formations and such which are the shown "real time" to the players on the sideline. How can this be that much worse? It's just a live picture...

I can't help but think you wouldn't be saying that if it were the Colts in this position.

 

[spike]

Not that cheating isn't a poor character quality even if others do it.

 

[markjs]

Lack of character my ass. are you honestly telling me that no other team in the league is doing this??? are you friggin kidding me? The only difference is that we got caught doing. I honestly have no problem and fail to see the difference between this and all those pictures that get taken during the game of formations and such which are the shown "real time" to the players on the sideline. How can this be that much worse? It's just a live picture...

Bellichick is a piece of crap IMHO, obviously he knew and sanctioned what was going on, and it's well known how he stabbed Parcells in the back. He is a individual of very suspect character. And if other teams were doing what the Patriots did in the way the Patriots did it they would have been found out as well.

Goodell did determine that they were indeed cheating. They are most likely going to lose multiple draft picks and they bloody well desrve it. Hell if I was commish I'd strip them of their win and give the game to the Jets, perhaps ban them from postseason play for the year. They have a great team with great talent and as lousy as Bellichick's character may be, nobody can deny he is a good coach and gets the most out of his team. But for them, or any team to cheat like that iss flat out despicable and I don't give a shit if they aren't the only ones doing it, because anyone who does it is despicable.

 

[JJR512]

I agree with woodman19_99, specifically the sentiment that to think nobody else is doing something similar by some means is ridiculous. I concurrently agree with spike that just because others may be doing it, doesn't mean it's not bad.

But there are ways around it. There's Professur's method. There's also still photography. The rule quoted in the OP is about video. Modern cameras (especially the high-end digital SLRs that sports photographers use) are capable of shooting at a high enough frame rate for enough frames to get near enough to motion to be good enough to get the hand signals. And it's not cheating until it's been ruled out; until then, it's just being creative.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

And what is being alleged here has been ruled out. Whether the ruling is right or not, it exists. Break it at your own peril. Which thus far, the NFL has deemed them to have done.

 

[woodman19_99]

While I'll definitely admit that they broke the rules in this case and probably deserve to have a couple of picks taken away, giving the game to the Jets or preventing them from going to the postseason are probably two of the worst ideas I have heard. I have a feeling it will end up being a loss of draft picks and a 2 game suspension for Belicheck.

What pisses me off is how people are making an example of the Patriots. If it had been the Browns or the Raiders who had been caught, this probably would have flown right under the radar and disappeared in media oblivion. But, it's the Patriots, so let's get all fired up over it. It amazes me how people get pissed off so easily. Why have we not heard anything about this Leonard Little guy, who is still playing for St. Louis, but a few years back murdered somebody? How is this guy still in the league? I just can't get over what passes for acceptable and what gets blown out of proportion in sports these days. Below article points to this idea...

Article

Whatever happens happens. We probably won't beat the Chargers, or for that matter the Bengals and I am sure everyone on Monday will say it's because we didn't have our secret weapon or some BS like that. And ya know someone will probably got busted using a high speed SLR camera because it is "close to a video"...


EDIT w/ regards to Inky's comment: Ya know, in my head I would like to think so, but in reality, nobody would defend their rival, no matter what the circumstance. I'd skewer the Colts if it was the other way around, no doubt.

 

[markjs]

If Bellichick is willing to break NFL rules to win, it calls his character into serious question. Because others do it, never makes something like this any more right. I do not believe that everyone is doing that. Sure they all try to steal signals, but I firmly believe most teams do it within the bounds of the rules. But defending the character of a cheater, well that's just lame. 100 years ago at the poker table Bellichick, would have been gunned down. Where there is smoke there is fire.

It doesn't matter what team got caught, I firmly believe Goodell would deal out the same kind of justice, but it's a no brainer, that when arguably the best team in the league is caught cheating, that's gonna be a huge story. It calls the team's entire sucessful history under Bellichick into question. I'm sorry, but nobody in a high stakes game where so much money and fame is involved, nor anyone in a friendly poker game, either way, is going to be able to claim to be of good character when they are a proven cheat. Why should anyone ever trust the guy in this game again?

 

[markjs]

This is a post on one of the Seahawks board, and it says everything I would say but haven't yet, so I'll post it here.

One thing that really stands out to me about this whole thing has been the willingness of other teams/players to speak out about it and openly criticize the Pats (and the fact that so many teams have made official complaints about this behavior.)
I'm not naive enough to think that everything that goes on in the NFL is above board. There's a lot of gray areas when it comes to this type of stuff - but IMO for so many people to be vocal and upset about this means that it's clearly beyond that gray area in NFL circles and has violated not only the official rules, but the "unwritten law"

The NFL is really a close-knit community (especially the coaching/team management side of things). They try and keep their dirty-laundry behind closed doors, and you can tell they first tried to handle the Pats in-house and low-profile ... but the Pats were so arrogant they kept doing it and really forced the issue.

The fact that the Pats were so adamant on doing this, even after warnings, tells me that they were reaping some major benefits from it. It was a big enough of a competitive advantage that it was worth the risks to them.

And, has been said before - with the limited time in between snaps, I don't think this was an "instantaneous" benefit in-game ... rather it was information that was valuable after they had built up a large database, and had time to study it. They probably have files on every team/coach/DC that they've built up over years ... and this means that it's behavior that has been occurring for a long time .... and I honestly think that if an in-depth investigation happens, then we will find out that this goes back all the way to the SB years (probably since day 1 Belicheck was hired)

But yeah - IMO this really calls the entire Pats' "dynasty" into question - especially since so much of their success has not necessarily been because of superior talent, but because of "superior coaching" the fact that they've always had the right play-call at crucial times to win close games, that their scheme has allowed them to get the most out of scrap-heap players, and that they could change "philosophies" even on the fly during a game - going from a power-running team to a pass-happy team depending on what D they were facing.

The big question is how much the NFL will pursue this. IMO, it's like the steroid issue in baseball - do they want to a full-scale investigation and air their dirty-laundry and take the PR hit of having a marquee franchise and championships called into question? Or do they simply want to dish out some penalties for the recent violation, give the appearance of discipline, and hope that it all stays under the rug and no one goes poking around the past?

Source.

 

[markjs]

Half a mil fine, which daddy Kraft will pay and a first round pick if they make the playoffs, and a second and third rounder if they miss the playoffs. The already have two first round picks next year, and the team itself was fine it's pocket change $250K. Basically they got off way easy, but I sincerely hope that it's enough to deter this shameful behavior in the future.

Story.

 

[unclehobart]

I disagree with cutting draft picks as that punishes them 3 years down the road. There needs to be a punishment that affects them THIS year. Flipping the W to a L will do it. A permanent injunction against Bellicheat ever getting into the HOF would also be nice. This isn't the first time they've done it. If it can be proven that it is a constant violation going back for years, then they should void the super bowl rings.

 

[unclehobart]

... to fine him $500,000 and dock the team $250,000 and a first-day draft pick next year.

Quarter mil? feh. Thats half the beer sales for one game. Its not a bad exchange for a few shots at thr brass ring. If thats all the punishment there is... let those cameras roll.

 

[unclehobart]

THIS is a real fine: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296723,00.html

 

[woodman19_99]

Alright, this whole flipping the W to an L is crap. The tape was taken before the first quarter was even finished. The game was 14-7 at half. How could it have had any effect what so ever on the rest of the game? The whole second half was set up by the 108 yard kickoff return, so how did the tape have any effect on the end result????

And Mark, papa Kraft can not pay that fine. I believe the NFL makes sure that the fine comes from the player/personnel as directed.

I'll agree, the fine probably isn't that big of a deal, but they are probably gonna lose several 1st day draft picks, and definitely a first rounder.

I still can't believe that if it was the seahawks or the raiders or any other team, that their fans wouldn't defend the team.

 

[unclehobart]

It doesn't matter squat about the one individual game. They have been called out for doing it for a likely unbroken stretch of time going back years. The Patriots actions in the past, or at least being so damn blatant about it, is the reason for the new rule in the first place.

Face it... it was cheating. What happens to you if you are in school and you get caught cheating? Do they discount the one question? hell no. Do they throw out the whole test? at a minimum. Do they fail you in the class? more likely. Do they expel you? probably. Its not an individual player working outside of the system. It was the defacto position of the management staff to conduct illegal behavior for advantages going back to god knows when. The hammer cannot come down hard enough. If this was the first time it happend, then I would be satisfied with the fine and an accept that it was just a fuzzy rule interpretation.... but this was not the first time. The rule was hard, unambiguous, and in the books. I would go so far as to say that the entire coaching staff needed to be banned for the whole season.