Cause & Effect

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
Liberal idealism is good. When it's balanced with reality. The reality is:

In 1991 saddam signed his name to a cease-fire which includes, as follows;

3 Apr 1991 Security Council resolution 687 (1991), Section C, decides that Iraq shall unconditionally accept, under international supervision, the destruction, removal or rendering harmless of its weapons of mass destruction, ballistic missiles with a range over 150 kilometres, and related production facilities and equipment. It also provides for establishment of a system of ongoing monitoring and verification of Iraq’s compliance with the ban on these weapons and missiles. Requires Iraq to make a declaration, within 15 days, of the location, amounts and types of all such items.

6 Apr 1991 Iraq accepts resolution 687 (1991) (S/22456).
Chronology, 1991-1999

Nowhere in that or subsequent resolutions did it say saddam was in charge.Yet he tried to disuade, threaten or otherwise impede the UN inspection process. The following are taken from the official UN Security Council timeline.

23-28 Jun 1991 UNSCOM/IAEA inspectors try to intercept Iraqi vehicles carrying nuclear related equipment (Calutrons). Iraqi personnel fire warning shots in the air to prevent the inspectors from approaching the vehicles. The equipment is later seized and destroyed under international supervision.

6 Sep 1991 The first UNSCOM inspection team which intended to use helicopters is blocked by Iraq.
Oct 1991 Iraq states that it considers the Ongoing Monitoring and Verification Plans, adopted by resolution 715 (1991), to be unlawful and states that it is not ready to comply with resolution 715.

18 Feb 1992 Special report of the Executive Chairman of UNSCOM regarding the visit of a special mission to Baghdad on 27 January 1991, recording that Iraq was rejecting any obligations imposed on it by Council resolutions 707 (1991) and 715 (1991) (S/23606).

19 Feb 1992 Statement by the President of the Security Council approving the report of the special mission and expressing grave concern over Iraq’s failure to acknowledge its obligations under resolution 715 (1991) and the plans for ongoing monitoring and verification, and supporting a decision to despatch a further special mission to Baghdad (S/23609).

28 Feb 1992 Statement by the President of the Security Council, upon receipt of the special Commission’s report, reaffirming that it is for UNSCOM alone to determine which items are to be destroyed under resolution 687, and condemning Iraq’s failure to provide full compliance with the relevant Security Council resolutions (S/23663).

11 Mar 1992 Statement by the President of the Security Council concerning general and specific obligations of Iraq including those in the weapons areas, under the various Security Council resolutions (S/23699).

12 Mar 1992 Statement by the President of the Security Council noting a statement made in the Council by the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq and expressing the view that Iraq had not yet complied fully and unconditionally with its obligations under the relevant Security Council resolutions (S/23709).

19 Mar 1992 Iraq declares the existence of previously undeclared ballistic missiles (89), chemical weapons and associated material. Iraq reveals that most of these undeclared items were unilaterally destroyed in the summer of 1991, in violation of resolution 687 (1991).

9 Apr 1992 Iraq calls for a halt of UNSCOM's aerial surveillance flights, making reference to the possibility that the aircraft and its pilot would be endangered.

10 Apr 1992 Statement by the President of the Security Council concerning Iraq’s threats to the safety and security of UNSCOM’s aerial surveillance flights over Iraq and reaffirming UNSCOM's right to conduct such flights (S/23803). Subsequently, Iraq affirms that it does not intend to carry out any military action aimed at UNSCOM's aerial flights.

6-29 Jul 1992 Iraq refuses an inspection team access to the Iraqi Ministry of Agriculture. UNSCOM had reliable information that the site contained archives related to proscribed activities.
Jan 1993 Iraq refuses to allow UNSCOM the use of its own aircraft to fly into Iraq. Furthermore, Iraq starts incursions into the demilitarized zone between Iraq and Kuwait and increases its military activity in the no-fly zones.
Jun-Jul 1993 Iraq refuses to allow UNSCOM to install remote-controlled monitoring cameras at two missile engine test stands.

26 Nov 1993 Iraq accepts resolution 715 (1991) and the plans for ongoing monitoring and verification.
Sep/Oct 1994 Iraq sets a deadline of 10 October 1994 for the implementation of paragraph 22 of resolution 687 (1991), rejects all appeals to withdraw its threat to stop cooperation with UNSCOM, and starts deploying troops in the direction of Kuwait. It leads the US to begin deploying troops to Kuwait.

15 Oct 1994 Security Council resolution 949 (1994), demands that Iraq "cooperate fully" with UNSCOM and that it withdraw all military units deployed to southern Iraq to their original positions. Iraq thereafter withdraws its forces and resumes its work with the Commission.

Jul 1995 Iraq threatens to end all cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA if there is no progress towards the lifting of sanctions and the oil embargo by 31 August 1995.
Jun 1996 Iraq denies UNSCOM teams access to sites under investigation for their involvement in the "concealment mechanism" for proscribed items

13 Jun 1996 Despite the adoption of resolution 1060 (1996), Iraq again denies access to another inspection team.
Nov 1996 Iraq blocks UNSCOM from removing remnants of missile engines for in-depth analysis outside Iraq.

21 Jun 1997 Iraq again blocks UNSCOM's teams from entering certain sites, which have been designated by UNSCOM for inspection.

Sep 1997 Iraq provides fifth Full, Final and Complete Disclosure for its prohibited biological weapons programme. An international panel of experts is convened in New York to discuss Iraq’s declaration. The panel unanimously finds Iraq’s declaration to be incomplete, inadequate and technically flawed.

13 Sep 1997 One of UNSCOM's personnel is manhandled by an Iraqi officer on board one of the Commission's helicopters while the inspector was attempting to take photographs of the unauthorized movement of Iraqi vehicles inside a site declared by Iraq to be "sensitive", that was designated for inspection. Two days later, Iraq again failed to freeze movement inside another "sensitive site" designated for inspection.

17 Sep 1997 While seeking access to a site for inspection declared by Iraq to be "sensitive", UNSCOM inspectors witness and videotape the movement of files, the burning of documents and dumping of ash-filled waste cans into a nearby river.

Sep/Oct 1997 UNSCOM inspection teams are prevented from inspecting three sites designated for inspection, on the basis that the sites are "presidential sites", which Iraq claims are out of bounds to UNSCOM's inspectors.

Oct 1997 UNSCOM completes the destruction of additional, large quantities of chemical weapons related equipment and precursors chemicals. Iraq had previously denied that part of the equipment had been used for CW production. Only in May 1997, on the basis of UNSCOM's investigations, did Iraq admit that some of the equipment had indeed been used in the production of VX.

29 Oct 1997 The Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq, Mr. Tariq Aziz, sends a letter to the President of the Security Council, informing the Council of policy decisions taken by the Government of Iraq. The letter includes a decision not to deal with personnel of United States nationality working for UNSCOM, a demand that all personnel of United States nationality working with UNSCOM leave Iraq by a given deadline, and a request that UNSCOM withdraw its "cover" for the "spy plane" U-2, provided by the United States.

13 Nov 1997 Iraq requires the personnel of United States nationality working for UNSCOM to leave Iraq immediately. The Executive Chairman decides the majority of the UNSCOM personnel should withdraw temporarily from Iraq. A skeleton staff remains in Baghdad to maintain UNSCOM's premises and equipment.

14 Jan 1998 Iraq continues to block the work of the inspection team.

22 Jan 1998 Following a visit to Iraq, the Executive Chairman reports to the Council that, despite the Council’s Statement on the need for unrestricted access to all sites, the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq continues to assert that Iraq would not permit access to eight so-called Presidential sites (S/1998/58).
Early Feb Two technical evaluation meetings (TEMS) take place in Baghdad, reviewing 1998 the position with respect to the chemical weapons agent VX. and missile warheads. The report of the outcome of the meetings is submitted to the Council (document S/1998/176). Despite Iraq’s assertions and it having had a full opportunity to present its views on all matters pertaining to the two issues, the team of UNSCOM international experts conclude unanimously that Iraq has still not provided sufficient information for the Commission to conclude that Iraq had undertaken all the disarmament steps required of it in these areas. The Commission’s experts provide the Council with an oral briefing of the outcome on these two TEMS in March 1998.

8 Apr 1998 The report of the biological weapons TEM is transmitted to the Council (S/1998/308). As with the other TEMs, the experts unanimously conclude that Iraq’s declaration on its biological weapons programme is incomplete and inadequate.

5 Aug 1998 The Revolutionary Command Council and the Ba’ath Party Command decide to halt cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA pending Security Council agreement to lift the oil embargo, reorganize the Commission and move it to either Geneva or Vienna. In the interim, Iraq would, on its own terms, permit monitoring under resolution 715 (1991).

31 Oct 1998 Iraq announces that it will cease all forms of interaction with UNSCOM and its Chairman and to halt all UNSCOM’s activities inside Iraq, including monitoring. The Security Council, in a statement to the press, unanimously condemn Iraq’s decision to cease all cooperation with UNSCOM.
UN Security Coucil Resolution timeline

In Novenmber 2002, the UN Security Council unanimously passed Resolution 1441, declaring it the final chance. If violations occur, "serious consequences" could follow. He had 30 days in which to submit to the UN, fully & completely, a declaration of Iraq's weapons programs.
9 January – The top United Nations weapons inspectors today said there were still many unanswered questions in Iraq's arms declaration although investigations on the ground so far have not uncovered any "smoking guns."
UN news
But in his 60-day update of the activities of the Commission, which is mandated to search for chemical, biological and other weapons, Mr. Blix said that the Iraqis have fallen short on issues of substance. "It is not enough to open doors," he said. "Inspection is not a game of 'catch as catch can.'"

[url=http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/sc7664.doc.htm]UN Press release Feb 03
"Against this background, the question is now asked whether Iraq has cooperated 'immediately, unconditionally and actively' with UNMOVIC, as is required under paragraph 9 of resolution 1441 (2002)," Mr. Blix said.
"It is obvious that, while the numerous initiatives, which are now taken by the Iraqi side with a view to resolving some long-standing open disarmament issues, can be seen as 'active,' or even 'proactive,' these initiatives 3-4 months into the new resolution cannot be said to constitute 'immediate' cooperation. Nor do they necessarily cover all areas of relevance."
UN News

Well, it looks like violation had occured. Blix also noted, after a Security Coucil meeting had ended, in a written brief that inspectors had found a drone, capable of dispersing gases, like VX. Why was it not included in his oral breifing?


saddam also supports terrorism. He has sent, or had sent, several, if not many, checks to the families of Palestinian murder bombers in the amount of $25,000. each for their "martyrdom against Israel", a US ally. He also has a 727 fuselage in which, it's claimed by US & other intelligence organizations, is used as a terrorist training to familiarize them for highjackings. There are noted al-qieda members known to be in the Baghdad and, possibly, Basra area. Other, lesser known terrorist "organizations" have been known to frequent Iraq. This in no way links him to the 09/11 attacks in NYC, Washington DC & teh crash in the fields of Pennsylvania. It does show he has terrorist links, which, given the right circumstances, may or will jeopardize America, whether it's people in foreign lands or itself, directly.

saddam controls vast oil fields. He, not his country, prospers because of this. The trade embargo, sanctioned under resolution 687, was patially lifted to allow sale of oil to the world markets in exchange for food & medicine for the Iraqi people. It's estimated that less than 15% of those proceeds are going to required end users. A vast majority is estimated to go to saddam himself and/or to strengthen his military. The US proposes the proceeds of these oil fields belongs to the government & people of Iraq & will be used, in part or fully, to re-pay rebuilding of the Iraq infrastructure & improving the economic situation.

saddam has a horrendous human rights record. I've seen estimates from one to 2 million of his countrymen have been brutalized, raped, disfigured, maimed or murdered, by him, either of his two sons or by their orders, directly or standing. He has, reportedly, used nerve agents on the Kurdish population to the north of Baghdad as well as the Shiite muslims in the southern part of Iraq. He purports to study Josef Stalin, who have his own history of attrocities.(over ten million by some estimates).


I see reason. I see cause. I do NOT see why the UN, especially France & Germany, would not follow through on their responsibilities & remove this viscious, brutal thief & liar from power. If these aren't good enough for you to agree that this war with Iraq is just, how many more must die before it's appropriate?

I am now done arguing the merits of this war.
 
Israel has broken many more UN resolutions, where is their Effect?

Pretty bizarre using the UN for justification, but going against the UN to invade.

I am now done arguing the merits of this war.

:headbang:
 
Israel is surrounded by a bunch of belligerent Islamic nations bent on it's destruction, which funnel tens of millions of dollars a year to groups that send 15 year olds onto busses carrying both Arabs AND Israelis in order that they can blow up themselves and everyone else on the bus...

now THAT is an effect..one which causes UN resolutions requiring Israel to stand down and take it to be ignored....
 
So even if we don't find any chemical weapons, he's still in violation of UN Security Council Resolution 687 because of the Scud missiles he's shot towards Kuwait, which have a range of greater than 150km. According to this, the most basic Scud missile has a range of 180km.
 
At one point there supposedly was a some debate on whether they were Scuds but I'm not sure how that got resolved.

Add the fact that I believe we're talking about using them to try and justify an invasion after the invasion has already begun.

It all really has been coming off like our administration had their hearts set on invading Iraq and then has been scraping for reason to justify it.

Plenty of countries seem to violate UN resolutions.
 
So even if we find chemical or biological weapons, it's still just finding an excuse afterwards? There's no possiblility we are locating the evidence our intelligence said was there?
 
None. If we find anything, we planted it. Even if we didn't, the end doesn't justify the means. This war is illegal, and Bush should be tried and sentenced for War Crimes.
 
Gonz said:
flavio said:
to try and justify an invasion

I implore you, READ the fucking first post :rolleyes:

I read it and don't believe it jusifies going against half the world to kill thousands and spend hundreds of billions. To l"liberate" people that for the most part don't seem to want us to "liberate" them. To cause our country to become public enemy #1 for many years to come becuase we couldn't make a decent case in front of the UN.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Everyone seems to think emoticons make their arguement stronger. I suppose I should use them too.
 
Well, we probably are public enemy #1 already. There isn't much chance of undoing that now. I guess all we can really do now is sit back and say I told you so when the 'liberated' return to a similar form of gov't after they have revolted against the 'imperial gov't' imposed upon them by the Empire of the United States. Sadly, nothing can change it now. We are only left with the opportunity to say 'I told you so.'

emoticons are just fun, I don't think they help the argument really :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
 
Add the fact that UN 1441 makes no provision for our military action right now and we actually had to go against them to do it.

Add the fact that we haven't even declared war on Iraq.
 
flavio said:
I read it and don't believe it jusifies going against half the world to kill thousands and spend hundreds of billions

there is no justification in killing anyone amount of lives but it was happening already. as ive said im more on your side but sadam in power is a bigger threat to the world.



flavio said:
To l"liberate" people that for the most part don't seem to want us to "liberate" them. To cause our country to become public enemy #1 for many years to come becuase we couldn't make a decent case in front of the UN.


some did some were cheering not everyone is with us flav you have to understand that. and the un thing well bush is a moron.
 
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