Cluster bombs...

Gato_Solo

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
and the call for a ban. Why? Because %40 of the 'victims' are children. Of course, saying %60 of all cluster bombs destroy enemy targets really doesn't matter...

Talks on cluster bomb ban in NZ

Unexploded bomblets may pose a hazard to civilians
More than 120 countries are meeting in New Zealand to discuss an agreement limiting the use of cluster bombs.

The talks - launched last year - aim to smooth progress towards the signing of a global treaty later this year.

But some major producers and buyers of cluster bombs - including the US, Israel, Russia and China - are absent.

Cluster bombs are controversial because they often fail to explode on contact with the ground, and may later end up killing or maiming civilians.

The UN has estimated that 40% of the victims of cluster bombs are children.
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Whats really strange? The countries that do not use these munitions are the only ones asking for their limitation.

Here is a factoid on them. Notice the dud rate.

Here is a history of usage. Notice the dud rate.

Couldn't find the dud rates on MK 82's, but, assuming that they are in the same range, which would you rather have to clean up...a 5 to 10 pound explosive bomblet, or a 500 pound iron bomb?
 
Bad math there Gato ,just because 60% aren't children doesn't mean they were the intended targets ,farmers , other civilians or even Peacekeepers sent in after the fact may fall victim.
 
A.B.Normal said:
An iron bomb can be detected Cluster bombs can't be.
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Umm...thats bullshit. Same as your thing about farmers and civilians. Looks like you forgot the 'live' WWII munitions they're still finding in France and Germany. The only difference between then and now is public misinformation and opinion. Here's a good one for you. Now, ask yourself a question. How long does it take a modern sub-munition to biodegrade into something that won't kill you?

PACE, Florida - An 8-year-old boy and his friend found a live, World War II-era hand grenade while searching for buried treasure with a metal detector.
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Please avoid rhetoric and stick to facts...
 
A.B.Normal said:
Looks to me like it was detected then ,wasn't it. :rolleyes: you posted that and still you choose to ignore the obvious.
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Nope. You just refuse to look for something to back up your statement. Ask yourself a question. Why'd it take so long to discover this? I know why. You obviously can't look beyond what you want to see.
 
The picture below shows a rooftop in Iraq illustrating that buildings will be targeted in conflict. Iraqi troops were stationed there and may have had vehicles that presented a "legitmate" target, but the submunitions entered the fabric of the building and many did not go off, causing a persistent problem when civilians later occupied the building.
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http://www.ddasonline.com/SubsBLU97.htm



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe.../cluster_bombs_lebanon_060824?s_name=&no_ads=

At least eight people have been killed and 25 wounded, including several children, by the devices since a UN-sponsored ceasefire took hold on Aug. 14, Gilbert told the Reuters news agency.
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Saying "Because %40 of the 'victims' are children. Of course, saying %60 of all cluster bombs destroy enemy targets" does not add up as THERE ARE civilian casualties other than children which cuts into your %60 are enemy targets.
 
A.B.Normal said:
http://www.ddasonline.com/SubsBLU97.htm



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe.../cluster_bombs_lebanon_060824?s_name=&no_ads=




Saying "Because %40 of the 'victims' are children. Of course, saying %60 of all cluster bombs destroy enemy targets" does not add up as THERE ARE civilian casualties other than children which cuts into your %60 are enemy targets.
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There are also civilian casualties with conventional bombs...and they stretch back to WWI. Most of those are on purpose, too. I'm glad you found something to look at, though. Makes for a more robust and factual debate.

Here's the scoop, though. Cluster bombs were invented by Nazi Germany during WWII. They were called "butterfly" bombs. The size hasn't changed much over the years since then, and most are quite easily found once you know what you're looking for. Thats because they don't tend to bury themselves like the 550 pounders. They also won't take out as much territory if they do go off. Case in point.

ZAMBOANGA CITY, Philippines -- Four people were killed by a bomb they had fished out of the sea off Zamboanga City, police said Friday.

The fishermen brought the bomb back to their home in the coastal village of Rio Hondo near here and tried to pry the casing open, triggering a blast that leveled the house and killed all four.

Zamboanga City police said two other people were injured and that the ordnance appeared to date from World War II.
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This next statement are from your source...

CTV's Denelle Balfour, reporting from Beirut, said some of the bomblets are easy to see, while others are brightly coloured and look like toys or batteries.
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Most are brightly colored, and none that I've ever seen can be mistaken for toys or batteries.

happy_bombs.jpg


The above is not to scale. Says so in the article...so why did they post it? Most bomblets I've seen are the size of a softball, and look like the one on the left...parachute included...the colors come from pressure during the Vietnam era because they'd be easier to see. As for your building link, you make my point for me. The building was a legitimate war target. Also...numbers. How many did not go off? Why were civilians moving back into the building without the building being 'swept' for UXO's? Perhaps you are correct, though, as a 550 pound bomb would have levelled that building as well as the buildings around it. You're trying to make it sound like the cluster bomb is actually more dangerous than an iron bomb, and nothing could be further from the truth.

One more pic. Please not the scale.

clusterbomb.jpg
 
Go here for a reasonable statement on what a cluster bomb is, and its effects. Pay close attention to number 8. Note. This site is totally against the use of Cluster bombs, and uses several points to drive this home. What they, and sites like theirs, fail to realize is that these munitions are intended for military use in an armed conflict. While making things safe for the civilian population after the war is over is, IMO, necessary and prudent, there is no such thing as a safe munition. I've shown where even a 550 pounder can still kill after 60 years of being buried under the earth. Bottom line is that you can't single out any explosive used in war. Those munitions were never meant to be safe...just stable. If you live in an area where war is, in effect, constant, over any period of time, you're going to have UXOs. Only two of these is a bomblet, two are mines, three are mortar rounds, and one is a 30mm from an A-10. None of them is safe. Even old rifle rounds can maim and/or kill. You want child-safe? Don't let your children play with them. Like I said earlier...bomblets are not hard to spot...
 
A.B.Normal said:
Bad math there Gato ,just because 60% aren't children doesn't mean they were the intended targets ,farmers , other civilians or even Peacekeepers sent in after the fact may fall victim.
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I don't think math is his strong point....or logic.
 
this thread is silly. none of us have any business in discussing military matters. gato is the professional. he knows. the bombs are intended for military use. militaries kill people. the people agianst these bombs are just upset they ain't got 'em. people don't kill bombs, puppies do.

why even ask if you already know the answer?
 
I almost agree with Minkey. This thread is silly. Naturally that's where the agreement ends. A bomb is a weapon. It's designed to kill. It's not a toy. It's not a paperweight. The case in point ... children in a building in a war zone injured by a bomb. How many times has that happened where the bomb was left as a booby trap? Hell, there's even special ordinance (claymore mines) specially designed for that purpose.

Who knew this building had been hit with cluster bombs and then left the ordinance there? Why were children in a building that had been damaged by ordinance in the first place? Don't tell me noone.

But no, we'll place all the blame on the ordinance. Yeah, that makes loads of sense. Folks, lets take a minute for a reality check, shall we? Weapons are made to kill, wound, maim, and destroy. Complaining about the effectiveness of a weapon is idiocy. Depleted uranium is being found on battle fields. Sure, it's a hazard now, but it's the best weapon against armour. Instead of moaning about it, how about addressing how to safely clean up the residue of battle. After all, noone in their right mind is going to leave a successful weapon in the locker while their own life is at risk. Stupid to even suggest it. That makes as much sense as asking soldiers to leave body armour at home in case it gets dirty. You'd get laughed outta the room.
 
Ban one kind of bomb? Why not just ban all bombs? Why not ban war?

Even better, I think warefare should go back to the style of several hundred years ago, with swords, axes, bows & arrows, battering rams, catapults, castles, siege engines, armored horses, boiling oil, etc. Now that was some manly serious killing.
 
i thinkj the objectors to this kind of weapon are looking at improper use and not something inherent.

cluster weapons have been used, in certain situations, against URBAN targets where they are inappropriate. but, then a MK82 slick is pretty inappropriate as well in an urbanized area - unless it's targeting a heavy troop concentration.

so again it's the situation of blaming the object for the behavior.
 
2minkey said:
i thinkj the objectors to this kind of weapon are looking at improper use and not something inherent.

cluster weapons have been used, in certain situations, against URBAN targets where they are inappropriate. but, then a MK82 slick is pretty inappropriate as well in an urbanized area - unless it's targeting a heavy troop concentration.

so again it's the situation of blaming the object for the behavior.
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Exactly my point.
 
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