Constituent Feminism??? It's a two way street then isn't it??

[IDLEchild]

Feminism is a respected practice among most women, a sense of empowerment right? A woman's antiphon against the tyranny of the MAN driven world.....so is it so wrong for a man to be macho? a shovinist pig.....I mean in essence he is also recognizing his sense of strength and his nature of a brutish yet sensible manhood right? "Sensible you say? but most men are walking fuck machines with IQ in double digits, their dicks are smarter than their supposed heads"....true enough to some extent but even then if women have a means of recoil against the idiocy of the MAN, don't men deserve a practice of their own?, a practice that isn't laced with negative ideology constituing of a beer drinking nincumpoop?

Women and men work hard. Agreed? Yet women for some reason seem to accept the sensitizing of their issues and letting them inflate to states of holy grails where any thinking against them labels one a mindless douche. Is that the most prudent way of achieving one's goals? doesn't it only lead to more negative lash backs from non-feminists and men?

Taking everything into account in a women defense: the high abuse rates from husbands, the infidelity of men more than women, men exceeding very well at committing crimes and what not and all such it is understood women seem to have an evolutionary upper hand in sensibility but even then women jump right back into the wagon of weakness and impression when it comes to social events.

If they can lobby for suffrage, hold rallies, stand in the cold and march in the name of womanhood then why expect the man to be courteous on dates? Equal rights also include equal social burdens so then Why complain then that men are cheap and take us on crappy dates? Why complain they get no dates when most don't make an effort to intiate the social fire? Why expect them to hold the door for you? Equal rights insinuates "Equal effort" no?

I am not rousing against the cause of women by any means, trust me ladies i love you but some hardcore feminists forget that rights and gender related issues are a two way street. Yes i understand men aren't short changed by any means in society, infact women are so don't harp on about that point please. Men deserve their sense of identity too, or just spilt the bill sometimes.

Any thoughts??

 

[Ms Ann Thrope]

I have split the bill my entire life, and I plan to for what's left of it. I agree, equal rights means EQUAL. I often hold doors open for men, it's just called being courteous. I don't expect special treatment, only equal opportunities. My female friends operate with the same mentality. "Thank you" and "please" are not gender-biased words. Unfortunately, too many women have taken the easy way out of getting what they want through emotional manipulation. But let's face it, that was one of the few tools available to us for many years. I deplore that sort of behaviour, and have always refused to engage in it.

When will things change? I believe that they already have changed, a great deal. The fact that this is a topic of discussion for one. We shouldn't be complacent, but we should also realize that the progress made in the last 100 years should be weighed against the evidence of history going back 1000s.

There has been a 'male movement' for a number of years now. Look at sites like http://www.menweb.org, for instance. There has been a plethora of books on the subject, the best known being by Robert Bly. Looking for a way to recapture your masculinity without crushing beer cans? Just look around... there are plenty of role models, publications and organizations willing to help you find the right paradigm for you.

 

[freako104]

both of my parents are feminists. they believe in equality for men and women. and i agree with them equality for bioth. but i dont like groups like SCUM and the anti male organisations.

 

[IDLEchild]

My female friends operate with the same mentality. "Thank you" and "please" are not gender-biased words.

True, but not my target.

Unfortunately, too many women have taken the easy way out of getting what they want through emotional manipulation. But let's face it, that was one of the few tools available to us for many years. I deplore that sort of behaviour, and have always refused to engage in it.

Exactly, i meant those who strive for womens independce in every sense yet back away when it works in their favor. While i do agree that emotional manipulation was the only tool avalible back then but is it still a respectable tool today? (it's validity as a effective tool is in no question) You, yourself say great deal of movement for the good has been made concerning this matter so shouldn't steadyfast determination be the driving force rather than mind games?

When will things change? I believe that they already have changed, a great deal. The fact that this is a topic of discussion for one. We shouldn't be complacent, but we should also realize that the progress made in the last 100 years should be weighed against the evidence of history going back 1000s.

Most definetly and rightly so. I feel this only adds to my previous point.

There has been a 'male movement' for a number of years now. Look at sites like http://www.menweb.org, for instance. There has been a plethora of books on the subject, the best known being by Robert Bly. Looking for a way to recapture your masculinity without crushing beer cans? Just look around... there are plenty of role models, publications and organizations willing to help you find the right paradigm for you.

Though hugely, HUGELY overshadowed by the ongoing feminist movement. I can see why it is so nimble and tame in it's progression, however. Most propaganda aimed towards men is juvenile at best. The Spike channel for men can hardly compare to the 3 different women's channel in it's maturity.

 

[Ms Ann Thrope]

seems like we're basically in agreement...
I do feel, however, that the feminist movement has been derailed. Too many young women are more familiar with Camille Paglia than Betty Friedan. Though it may be a simple issue, it is a complex world, and I only hope that as a society we continue to hobble towards a more level playing field.

 

[IDLEchild]

I only hope that as a society we continue to hobble towards a more level playing field.

The optimism is biting me, you're optimistic for me......

 

[Ms Ann Thrope]

well, I did say "hobble"!

 

[tonksy]

why can't we all just get along? people are people are people.....everyone deserves to be treated with respect and given a fair shake, regardless of what's between their legs or the color of their skin. any other kind of thought is just tiresome to me. and ignorant, let's not forget ignorant.

 

[IDLEchild]

why can't we all just get along? people are people are people.....everyone deserves to be treated with respect and given a fair shake, regardless of what's between their legs or the color of their skin. any other kind of thought is just tiresome to me. and ignorant, let's not forget ignorant.

See this is the lazy way out of it. As much as we all like a happy little candy world sadly Tonksy there are complications that arise that counter this blissfull well wishing. Pure, objective Equal rights, time and time again have shown to fail and burden women even more so than before.

Other thoughts may be tiresome but they are the greys between the black and white world we hope for concerning this matter.

 

[tonksy]

well, in tonky's world, i start everyone on a level playing field. it's not laziness. i understand that just because you are a woman/man doesn't mean you are like every other woman/man. i understand that stereotypes are usually accurate, but i also know you cannot expect people to behave stereotypically. everyone is an individual and i like people who recognize this and respect it in others. i resent the laziness comment, but i can see where it stems from. just know that i speak the truth of my feelings on the matter.

 

[IDLEchild]

well, in tonky's world, i start everyone on a level playing field. it's not laziness.

This just isn't so. I wish the world would run according to your laws then....actually i don't...differences and distinguishable characteristics give life spice.

i understand that just because you are a woman/man doesn't mean you are like every other woman/man.

True enough

i understand that stereotypes are usually accurate, but i also know you cannot expect people to behave stereotypically.

No and true.

everyone is an individual and i like people who recognize this and respect it in others.

Individuality was never at question. I am talking on a macro level.

i resent the laziness comment

It means you cared enough to think about the issue.

but i can see where it stems from. just know that i speak the truth of my feelings on the matter.

Keep doing so from hereon.

 

[tonksy]

now i learned this in sociology - stereotypes are generally true, that's how they came to be, but they can be misplaced and outdated. it is your job as a person capable of thought is to reserve judgement until you have met the individual. i may be a hippy or a communist, but i think that everyone has the ability to be a contributing member of society...in some way, however small it may be. as for differences and character - i welcome these, but that doesn't mean you have to be dicriminated against.

 

[freako104]

i understand that stereotypes are usually accurate, but i also know you cannot expect people to behave

i disagree. i believe stereotypes come from teh actions of a few that are tehn used to stereotype and judge a whole group of people. other than that i totally agree wtih you

 

[IDLEchild]

i may be a hippy or a communist, but i think that everyone has the ability to be a contributing member of society...in some way, however small it may be. as for differences and character - i welcome these, but that doesn't mean you have to be dicriminated against.

This isn't neccessarily about discrimination or individulaism but more rather it's about equality. I established in the orignal post that women were and are discriminated against so i ask is overly sensitizing their issues and having double standards a pragmatic approach towards leveled playing fields.

 

[tonksy]

i wasn't talking about discrimination against women. i meant it in a more generic term. any discrimination fights equality. i'm not saying i go around happy all day loving mankind, far from it. i just prefer to dislike people for more personal reasons based on their individual character and personality. i can't see hating someone because they are a man or black or gay or catholic or whatever. i am trying to remember a quote that fits the bill (it was something kurt vonnegut said...something about a hot fudge sundae) but i can't. i hope i have helped to explain my slant on the issue.

 

[IDLEchild]

We're not on the same train of thought Tonks....not on what you say but you're talking about something else and i am expecting something else. You make good points though.

 

[tonksy]

not the first time i've been out in left field on an issue. sorry. and thanks.

 

[Oz]

Hmm, the world has moved on a lot since Mary Wostonecraft scribbled down her A Vindication of the Rights of Woman in the 18th Century

In the proffesional (working) world women are now on an equal footing with men as regarding the law, working conditions, pay,promotion and priveledges etc (sorry, don't know how it works in other countries....only in the UK).

When it comes to how the sexes relate to each other in society I think that one the macro level, in my experience anyway, the feminist movement is shouting about nothing......I can't think of any specific example of gender being a factor that deprives anyone of participating in any aspect of society.

so is it so wrong for a man to be macho? a shovinist pig.....I mean in essence he is also recognizing his sense of strength and his nature of a brutish yet sensible manhood right?

Now this caught my eye I certainly think it is wrong for a bloke to be chauvanistic........IMO chauvanism is just a pretty word for discrimination. I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with a man being macho......it's no different to a woman being feminate. That is down to personal nature and personality. I don't think that brutish is a term that has ever been used to describe a sensible, intelligent man.......a shaved gorilla maybe.

If they can lobby for suffrage, hold rallies, stand in the cold and march in the name of womanhood then why expect the man to be courteous on dates?

I think both sexes expect a certain degree of courtesy......I'd certainly be a bit pissed off if I was on a date and the lass started scratching an itchy right tit or something but I wouldn't sit there scratching my balls either This boils down to the individual again. Respect for the person you're with dictates how courteous a person will be.

Equal rights insinuates "Equal effort" no?

Indeed.

Men deserve their sense of identity too, or just spilt the bill sometimes.

A lot of the trouble is that some men have had a lot of trouble adjusting to the steady change in society. A century ago immpecable manners were the sign of a real "Gentleman" nowadays those same social standards are seen as overbearing and occasionaly patronising.
Machismo is often viewed as arrogance and ignorance........many societies encourage men to be sensitive.......where until the 1960's this was unheard of. Tis a confusing situation for a lot of men, maybe we should start compulsory eostrogen injections

As to paying the bill............If I'm feeling rich I usually just drop the money on the plate (but I spend money a bit reckless as the best of times) but if I'm feeling skint, open yer purse hun......the drinks are on you!

 

[IDLEchild]

A: Learn to spell and punctuate on a fifth grade or higher level.

B: Learn the rudiments of the ideologies you attack.

C: Never, under any circumstances whatsoever, even consider reproducing.

This is the response i got from a ultra intelligent poster on another board from this thread.....this girl is a hyper intellect but she can pack a mean reply.

 

[PrincessLissa]

I am a feminist, and I do make comments about men quiet often. But my comments are from my expierence with men who were mean to me.

Men have every right to celebrate thier manliness. They way hardcore feminists see it (my theory anyway) is that men celebrating thier manliness is a way of putting women down. What they see as being a "manly man" in today's society is the helping of putting women down.

I think that things should be equal, a two way street. A woman should have the same struggle getting a higher position in a company as a man should. She should have the same pay and so on. There should be no glass ceiling for women. I also think that a woman should not get a job over a man just because she is a woman. She should only get that job because she was a better canidate with stronger skills. Just as I think that a man should be able to stay home with the kids, make dinner, mend fallen hems and so on. I also think that men should stop looking at these household chores as "woman's work". Granted that is how it has been since the begining of time. But now women are expected to be in the work force, filing papers, prosecuting criminals and bringing home the bacon to further support the family right along side the man. SO why doesn't she get the same pay? Why can't he help with the laundry and the dishes? Why does he get to come home, eat, watch TV and sleep and mow the lawn on the weekend? Not to mention that being a house wife is a very hard, pretty thankless, and un-paid job. As women are forced into the work force by today's economy, we deserve the same rights and men should be forced into some of the household chores. I know that many men are like this and I give them all tremendous snaps for that, but the basic, general male population does not see it as feminists and these outstanding men do.

I dunno, I am tired and rambling.