God and Monsters

HeXp£Øi±

Well-Known Member
George W. Bush and Jesus are pals. Voters knew this when we elected him president in 2000 (Bush, not Jesus), and we assumed it would pop up from time to time during his tenure, in a compassionate conservative kind of way. But with the president employing "God talk" more and more often in the run-up to war, there has been much anxious discussion about the implications of Bush's outspoken religiosity. Some people (especially among Bush's evangelical base) dig it, pleased that their president is a proudly spiritual fellow willing to embrace the moral absolutes of "us v. them," "good v. evil." Others are made uneasy by Bush's conviction that God is on our side and by his compulsion to express that conviction publicly, even at the risk alienating the rest of the world (which already holds a dim view of America's battle plans).

It's not hard to understand the basic objections/reservations to Bush's wartime God-talk. For starters, any time a leader claims a divine calling for his temporal aims--especially temporal aims likely to involve massive bloodshed--people should get a little nervous. The belief that God is on one's side tends to skew the judgment and behavior of any mortal, much less a guy already miffed because Saddam once tried to kill his daddy. Moreover, since Bush is a self-described born-again Christian, the Muslim world can certainly be forgiven for disliking the Crusader-ish overtones of the president's stated goal of overhauling the entire Middle East.

But as we wait for the first wave of troops to go marching into Baghdad (and the wave of retaliatory terrorist strikes to hit the United States), I'd like to flag a couple of points about Bush's particular brand of faith that make me considerably more jittery than I would be if the unflappably Episcopalian Poppy were running this show.

As Howard Fineman points out in the current issue of Newsweek, W.'s relationship with Jesus has always been of the twelve-step, baby-boomerish variety so popular in recent years. The president's path to salvation began in the mid-1980s, when his chum Don Evans got him involved in a Bible-study group characteristic of the "small-group movement," described by Fineman as a "mix of self-help, self-discipline, group therapy ... and worship." Bush thus came to know Jesus as someone who helps you achieve even the really tough things you want to get done: stop being a drunk, grow up, become president, etc. Basically, Jesus became Bush's life coach--a sort of divine Tony Robbins.

Now, for the most part, there's no harm in this particular conception of God. Seeing God as your own personal life coach frequently motivates people to undertake acts of self-improvement, whether or not God actually cares if they quit smoking or drop ten pounds. And even if this God-as-life-coach view occasionally becomes harmful--say someone believes God wants them to work to the point of exhaustion for that promotion--it normally doesn't impact anything other than their own personal fate. But all of that goes out the window when the man getting lifestyle advice from God is the one making military decisions for the most powerful country in the history of the planet. Even for those who accept the basic premise of a proactive Almighty Father, it's probably unsettling to think that W. is charging into battle with the blind confidence that God will of course help him emerge victorious--just like he helped Bush kick the hooch and become a better father.

Which brings us to the second unnerving aspect of Bush's religiosity: Lots of political leaders make decisions and pronouncements based broadly on what they believe is God's will. But Bush's brand of born-again Christianity isn't rooted in the kind of theological study or debate that might produce a coherent worldview. Instead, it follows directly from the believer's one-on-one communion with God. At best this gives the prescriptions Bush gleans from his faith an ad hoc quality--had Bush interpreted his particular Iraq conversations with God differently, the fate of the entire Middle East might have been altered. At worst, this becomes completely self-justifying, placing a divine stamp of approval on pretty much anything the believer wants to do--or rather, wants God to help him do. As Newsweek's Fineman put it, "Bush decided Saddam was evil, and everything just flowed from that."

It bears noting, however, that Bush is not the only devoutly spiritual fellow talking to God about Iraq--and not everyone seems to be getting the same answer. As yesterday's New York Times noted, a large swath of the nation's religious leaders have come out against the war. In addition to the Roman Catholics, whose opposition is well known, other churches calling for restraint include the United Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the American Baptist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, the Syrian Orthodox church of Antioch, and the Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of America. (Jewish organizations are divided.) Those voicing support for the war tend to be the leaders of Pentecostal or evangelical ministries, including the mega-denomination in which I was born and bred, the Southern Baptists. These are the president's people, born-agains who build their lives around the idea of a personal walk with Christ. Many of them certainly share Bush's conviction that God is staunchly on our side in this battle. With the stakes so high, I envy them and the president their certitude--though not half so much as I fear it.

Source
The New Republic
 
Interesting....Very interesting...I, personally, prefer not to here religious tones in political speak. It only serves to cloud the facts when the facts are so imporrtant.
 
HeXp£Øi± said:
a large swath of the nation's religious leaders have come out against the war

In defense of them, that is their job. I see no problem in teh Pope saying there has to be a peaceful way to solve this. Religion issupposed to subdue violence. Just ask the Muslims. They'll tell you.

As far as our Commander-in Chief..scares the bejeezus outta me. There is an argument it's historical. We were created by men of faith. They, of course, had enough sense to seperate religion from politics.

If this is a crusades, had me the rifle, I'll stop it.
 
In the bible the Jews told God that they needed someone, a person(government) to rule over them. God in response told the Jews it was an Evil thing they desired in having one rule over them and that they would live to regret it. It's all rather ironical isn't it.:D
 
Makes ya wonder, could we live, peaceably, without government?


Let it go-about the peaceably part :D
 
Not now that we've become so dependent upon it. That would be like ripping the heroin away from a full time addiction(which can result in death).
 
What a scary thought, 6 billion people suddenly without "order" :shivers:
 
Gonz said:
In defense of them, that is their job. I see no problem in teh Pope saying there has to be a peaceful way to solve this. Religion issupposed to subdue violence. Just ask the Muslims. They'll tell you.


theyre supposed to even Muslims dont believe in violence its the extremists who use violence.
 
HeXp£Øi± said:
George W. Bush and Jesus are pals. Voters knew this when we elected him president in 2000 (Bush, not Jesus), and we assumed it would pop up from time to time during his tenure, in a compassionate conservative kind of way. But with the president employing "God talk" more and more often in the run-up to war, there has been much anxious discussion about the implications of Bush's outspoken religiosity. Some people (especially among Bush's evangelical base) dig it, pleased that their president is a proudly spiritual fellow willing to embrace the moral absolutes of "us v. them," "good v. evil." Others are made uneasy by Bush's conviction that God is on our side and by his compulsion to express that conviction publicly, even at the risk alienating the rest of the world (which already holds a dim view of America's battle plans).

It's not hard to understand the basic objections/reservations to Bush's wartime God-talk. For starters, any time a leader claims a divine calling for his temporal aims--especially temporal aims likely to involve massive bloodshed--people should get a little nervous. The belief that God is on one's side tends to skew the judgment and behavior of any mortal, much less a guy already miffed because Saddam once tried to kill his daddy. Moreover, since Bush is a self-described born-again Christian, the Muslim world can certainly be forgiven for disliking the Crusader-ish overtones of the president's stated goal of overhauling the entire Middle East.

But as we wait for the first wave of troops to go marching into Baghdad (and the wave of retaliatory terrorist strikes to hit the United States), I'd like to flag a couple of points about Bush's particular brand of faith that make me considerably more jittery than I would be if the unflappably Episcopalian Poppy were running this show.

As Howard Fineman points out in the current issue of Newsweek, W.'s relationship with Jesus has always been of the twelve-step, baby-boomerish variety so popular in recent years. The president's path to salvation began in the mid-1980s, when his chum Don Evans got him involved in a Bible-study group characteristic of the "small-group movement," described by Fineman as a "mix of self-help, self-discipline, group therapy ... and worship." Bush thus came to know Jesus as someone who helps you achieve even the really tough things you want to get done: stop being a drunk, grow up, become president, etc. Basically, Jesus became Bush's life coach--a sort of divine Tony Robbins.

Now, for the most part, there's no harm in this particular conception of God. Seeing God as your own personal life coach frequently motivates people to undertake acts of self-improvement, whether or not God actually cares if they quit smoking or drop ten pounds. And even if this God-as-life-coach view occasionally becomes harmful--say someone believes God wants them to work to the point of exhaustion for that promotion--it normally doesn't impact anything other than their own personal fate. But all of that goes out the window when the man getting lifestyle advice from God is the one making military decisions for the most powerful country in the history of the planet. Even for those who accept the basic premise of a proactive Almighty Father, it's probably unsettling to think that W. is charging into battle with the blind confidence that God will of course help him emerge victorious--just like he helped Bush kick the hooch and become a better father.

Which brings us to the second unnerving aspect of Bush's religiosity: Lots of political leaders make decisions and pronouncements based broadly on what they believe is God's will. But Bush's brand of born-again Christianity isn't rooted in the kind of theological study or debate that might produce a coherent worldview. Instead, it follows directly from the believer's one-on-one communion with God. At best this gives the prescriptions Bush gleans from his faith an ad hoc quality--had Bush interpreted his particular Iraq conversations with God differently, the fate of the entire Middle East might have been altered. At worst, this becomes completely self-justifying, placing a divine stamp of approval on pretty much anything the believer wants to do--or rather, wants God to help him do. As Newsweek's Fineman put it, "Bush decided Saddam was evil, and everything just flowed from that."

It bears noting, however, that Bush is not the only devoutly spiritual fellow talking to God about Iraq--and not everyone seems to be getting the same answer. As yesterday's New York Times noted, a large swath of the nation's religious leaders have come out against the war. In addition to the Roman Catholics, whose opposition is well known, other churches calling for restraint include the United Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the American Baptist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, the Syrian Orthodox church of Antioch, and the Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of America. (Jewish organizations are divided.) Those voicing support for the war tend to be the leaders of Pentecostal or evangelical ministries, including the mega-denomination in which I was born and bred, the Southern Baptists. These are the president's people, born-agains who build their lives around the idea of a personal walk with Christ. Many of them certainly share Bush's conviction that God is staunchly on our side in this battle. With the stakes so high, I envy them and the president their certitude--though not half so much as I fear it.

Source
The New Republic

C'mon bro..............have ya actually walked a mile in the man's shoes?

..............neither 'ave any of us.

'Propaganda' is easily taken in by those of us who have no clue what it means to try to lead folk in a direction which we firmly believe will be in the best interest of all of those, (besides ourselves), (myself included of course, hex).

Maybe he is alienating folk...............but maybe he's takin' a stand, like he's pickin' a lane an stayin' in it.

Shall we all now spill oil on his path, or we will be willin' to align ourselves with the "unpopular" an support the effort of a fellow-sinner who's perhaps, tryin' to do the best he can, under very eroding circumstances?

i know i myself, am always quicker to side with the appearant 'victor', rather that the appearant 'underdog',
my money's on this underdog..........

For what its worth, i didn't appreciate all contained in his last state of the union, but i would still vote again, for a man whose willin' to be counted as "unpopular", in exchange for the opportunity to offer his own view, in a costly 'honest' way, bankin' on the favor of the few who'd dare to align themselves with a view which demands more faith than sight. i beilive he tried to remain 'untainted' by what the "popular" poles demanded,

instead of a man whose lying tougue gained the approval of the masses, but which made a lesser statement to those who willfully threaten the 'security' of the land that was once made free..........:(
 
I haven't and as you point out, neither have any of us. So all that's left is for us to make the most sound judgement that intellect and wisdom allows. He might be taking a stand and i want to believe that he's doing the right thing. In the beginning(i should say up until a few weeks ago) i gave him the benefit of the doubt. However the more i learn the more concerned i become with our current course. I'm not sure who's 'lying tougue' you're referring to but regardless of who it is i think i can confidently say that because one is 'evil' does not automatically make the other 'good' by default. I don't care how much a man prays or speaks of god. The priests and Pharasees did that. But a mans relationship with god will be revealed by his fruit. Let me make clear that i do not judge our president i only disagree with him. Someone once said to me that god is not overly concerned with judgements carried out here on earth. I believe he told us not to judge because we are generally corrupted morons who suck at fair judgement. The worst we do by not taking action(imo) is let an evil man go unpunished. Therefor we fail to carry out a form of justice. But if we are wrong in this action we do worse than fail to carry out justice but we commit an entirely new injustice. If the people of Iraq were crying out for me to extend the hand of justice i would be happy to lay down my life for them. But since not even they want this why should i bother? In any case...i'm glad i'm not in the mans shoes.
 
Hex......

In an effort to offer a few words of comfort an' encouragement brother, I say, the beauty of this life, to me, is the fact that neither the noblest, nor the most devious thoughts an' acts of men, are ever considered, by the soveriegn God of Heaven, as bein' of surprise to Him.

As ya know, His infinite wisdom an' power over all, will never allow anything to happen down here, that He doesn't will to be.

IMHO, whether we choose to live at peace with our neighbor, or rather, to destroy one another with the weapons we make for ourselves, neither catches this God of ours off-gard, nor happens without His permission.

In my own humanness, I'd like all the bastards who wish to kill us all, to bite the big bad knockwurst, by my device or another's!! (double-time)

Attemptin' to get back on topic with ya, per yer original post, I too share a feelin' of insecurity at times, when I observe the off-hand manner that these matters seem to be approached, but I still say, the best thing I think I can do is to love God, love you, an' pray for the man who we, the US, elected to lead us, an' all the men an' women in uniform in harm's way, an' jus' leave the results to the One who made us all from the dust. I believe its my duty.

If our cause aligns with God's, we will prevail, but if does not, we shall all surely reap the end of our mis-guided efforts, with no hope of recourse, on this Earth!

In either case, I'll choose to rejoice, in life or in death, an' I'll see ya on the other side bro!:)
 
Gonz said:
75renegade said:


75!!!!! You got your "H" fixed :bgtup:

So far, the latest update in this dinosaur, 'as brougHt back, at least, 'partial' use of my " " key.......uu ggg.........hhhhh......H h H h..........

Damn!!:mad:

Seems to work better w en the putor is HHHHEated up a bit. *smile*

There. T at's better........:confuse2:
 
Gods & Monsters seems a good place for this :D

clintonbooks.jpg
 
Back
Top