How the Confederacy lost the US Civil War...

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
Two things...Superior Logistics and Repeating Rifles.

1. Rail lines in the Northern states were standardized. You could take a train from Boston all the way to the capital (D.C.), and, no matter which train company you took, they could all use the same set of rails.
The individual companies of the Confederate States each had different gauge rail lines. In order to get from, say, Biloxi to Chatanooga, you'd have to be met at each train station with a totally different train, and reload each car with your supplies. Time is vital in a battle.

2. Up until the Union-Confederacy war, rifles were single-shot...muskets, breech-loaders, etc...but single-shot all the same. The armies of the North, starting at around 1863, were issued repeating rifles. The armies of the South were still using breech-loading single-shot rifles. They were better shots by far, but, if you miss, the other guy has 15 shots.

SnP...you're up. ;)
 
I think if you two are gonna get into it, this thread need to take a walk to a more appropriate location.
 
Professur said:
I think if you two are gonna get into it, this thread need to take a walk to a more appropriate location.

Yeah, let's see how this turns out.
 
Professur said:
I think if you two are gonna get into it, this thread need to take a walk to a more appropriate location.

It's not really news, and it's definitely not entertainment. It's a historical discussion. If it breaks out into a nuclear exchange, feel free to lock and/or delete it. Nobody is throwing stones here. :lloyd:
 
Professur said:
And how, exactly am I supposed to achieve that?


Achieve what? A nuclear exchange? Choose a side, and hurl insults instead of facts. Use emotion instead of logic. :shrug:
 
The first machine-gun type weapon ever used in combat was built for the Confederate War Dept in Sept 1861. The Williams breech-loading rapid-fire gun was first used at the Battle of Seven Pines and worked so well that the War Dept ordered 42 more of them. The gun was actually a crank-operated, very light artillery piece that fired a one-pound (1.57 calibre) projectile with a range of 2,000 yards. It was operated by a crew of three and could fire at a rate of 65 rounds per minute. One operator aimed and fired the weapon by turning the crank, the second placed a paper cartridge into the breech, and the third placed the percussion cap. The major problem with this gun was overheating, which made the breech jam due to heat expansion.

Here...
 
In reality, the Civil War was not a civil war. In a civil war, two or more factions fight for control of the national government. But the South was not trying to overthrow the national government, nor was it trying to achieve exclusive control of the government. The South merely wanted to leave the federal government in peace and was willing to pay its share of the national debt and to pay compensation for federal installations in the Southern states. The Confederacy tried to establish peaceful relations with the federal government, but Lincoln refused to even meet with Confederate representatives.

The Civil War was a war of aggression against the South. Republican leaders and their Northern industrialist backers used the force of the federal government to destroy Southern independence. Some of these men despised the South. Radical Republicans saw in secession an excuse to subjugate and exploit the Southern states. Northern business leaders who bankrolled the Republicans feared that their financial empire would be threatened if the Confederate states were able to trade directly with other nations with the much lower Confederate tariff. The Republicans weren’t about to lower the tariff, since they were committed to drastically raising it (which they did soon after the South seceded). Rather than fairly compete with the low Confederate tariff by lowering the federal tariff, the Republicans and their Northern financial backers opted to destroy the Confederacy by force. Charles Adams demonstrates that after the Confederacy announced its low tariff, influential Northern business interests began to strongly oppose peaceful separation and Lincoln’s cabinet quickly reversed itself and adopted a hardline stance on Fort Sumter (When In the Course of Human Events, pp. 61-70). Simkins said the following about the motives behind the federal invasion, race relations in the North, and what happened when Southern influence was removed from the federal government:

Northern industrial and financial leaders wished to destroy the influence of the agrarian South in Washington in order to use the powers of the federal government to their own advantage. Northern common people wished slavery restricted or abolished because they objected to the competition of cheap labor, not because they wished to make the bondsmen their equals. Both of these groups revealed their intentions when Southern influence was removed from the federal capital and when the Negro was free.

(above from this link. )


As to why the Confederacy did not win the invasion against it, I merely point to the above. Financially, they were choked out of existence. Consider:

* 90% of developed industry was in the north, but where did most of those raw materials come from?

* The railroad system was far more developed in the north, thus forcing Southern farmers to sell their crops at drastically reduced prices because they simply could not get them to market before they went bad. This reason alone is why many mountaineers in my own region made moonshine. Corn spoils; corn liquor doesn't.

* The tariff was implemented and raised beyond belief to further repress trade competition from Southern states. That should be very plain.



Never ever place any responsibility on the Confederate soldier. Time and again these brave men were cited and noted by nothern military leaders for their uncompromising bravery, marksmanship, and endurance. Robert E. Lee was and remains among the elite military minds of American history. Unfortunately, he stood so far above his field commanders that the decisions made by those besides Lee were ill-fated at best, moronic at times.

Confederate soldiers were, quite literally, fighting for the very ground they stood on and revered. They were invaded. Invaded. Homes destroyed. Wives raped, children slaughtered, home and farm plundered and burned. May Sherman smoke another turd in Hell for it. The majority of the battles occurred on Confederate soil. Think about this...you're a soldier fighting to be free from a governemnt that sold you out to a northern factory owner and neglected to share any of the wealth. You are tired, hungry, scared, and demoralized. You are not that far from home. You know the baby was sick when you left, the family needs you, and you can't help them. You've seen farm after farm just like yours in ashes. Think you might feel a little bit inclined to take off and care for your family? Many did. Some did so and returned to duty when they could.

So in a brief and passing analysis, I lay the largest chunk of responsibility on:

* Economic oppression
* A failed president (Lincoln) who instituted a dictatorship and sold his soul.
* Inferior military strategy
* A war criminal of epic proportions
* Manipulative policy from Washington designed to keep the South inferior and subjugated to the whims of their moneyed contributors



I have not the time at the moment to cite every source for every statement i made. Sue me. The above link, while long, is marvelous. I dare anyone to read it and say they haven't learned something, or that they don't feel lied to by their history textbooks.

Plain and simple, there are those who even today support another attempt at secession. I personally would consider backing it, depending on the other planks in the platform. I have read the entire Confederate Constitution. Aside from the slavery clauses, which is another discussion entirely and is not what you have been spoonfed in school either, I support it 100% and defy anyone to read it and then tell me it was a bad idea...better than what we have now in fact.

But we'll likely never know. :crying4:
 
Okay...looks like the politics side is well represented. Nice link, BTW...

So...tariffs and discontent played a big part in secession. We can also see that industrial capacity was extremely reduced. Couple these with the actual war-fighting capabilities provided by these political wranglings, and we begin to see that this wasn't as 'cut and dried' as we've been taught. Since I don't want to see this degenerate into a debate over the legalities of slavery, I won't mention that word again unless forced to respond.

Here we have a population that, if SnP's site is 100%, is boiling mad. The greatest military minds of the time (mostly from the South, BTW) turn down commands of Union forces to command their own forces in the South. (Robert E Lee was on tap to be commander of the Union Forces before the war). Unfortunately, with the lack of industrial capability, the Southern forces had to turn to others for help...and paid dearly for it in needed finances.

Now we come to allegiences. At one point, wasn't England supposed to help the Confederacy?
 
Yep. No real mystery why they would. I imagine they were quite eager to exact a measure of revenge on Washington. Not to mention the aspect of trade with another nation, global positioning of the Confederacy, and many other reasons.

As to being boiling mad, I feel the need to add this caveat. I estimate that maybe 0.25% of Southerners are as ill about it as I am. It is not a point of daily conversation around the Dixie water coolers. There are more people becoming aware of the notion, though, and more in support of it. It's not feasible yet.

Southern pride is rebounding nicely in the face of every media outlet's obvious assault on it. Every time the NAACP boycots Ole Miss' football games, more people call it the last straw and take up the cause of Confederate history. Every time someone bitches about Stone Mountain, another person goes equally as hard trying to preserve the monument. I personally am glad to see it. I saw a quote once to the effect of, "If the present campaign to rob Southerners of their culture, their identity, and their symbols were to be waged on any other people in the world, it would be called cultural genocide." Truer words...

In the grand, day to day scheme of things, it may not seem like much. But taken as a whole, it is deplorable, and it's been underway for almost 200 years now. I'm sick of it. I don't feel inferior to anybody anywhere simply because of my dialect. But there is no shortage of people willing to try and make me feel that way. Some of them are probably on this board, reading this right now. (Hello to you by the way) If you've ever made fun of the accent, poked redneck jokes, called us backward or hillbilly or whatever, then you're guilty. No better than a Klan member calling black folks derrogatory names. No, none better. You don't like seeing that, so you wave it off and crack another stereotype. But it's true. So I decided to give the same measure back in return. Sauce for the goose and all. For every redneck you label, I label a halfback. For every dumb Southerner joke, I make it a dumbass Yankee joke. For every Southern anomally you pick out, I easily find a New England one, or a Michigan one, or whatever. Fair's fair, right?

There are some of us "boiling mad". I am becoming more of one every day. The more I learn about true history, the madder I get. The more resentful I become. Is that right? No. Guess that makes me no better than you...the point I've been trying to make for years now. No better, and damn sure not inferior.

Upon request, I can provide other links similar to the one you enjoyed above. I don't charge for them either. Just lemme know.
 
As long as we're being...erm...civil. ;)

The thing I like best about the South? You know exactly who you're dealing with. If they don't like you, they'll tell you. No bones about it...No backstabbing, and no behind-the-scenes maneuvers to make you look bad.
 
Well, I won't say no backstabbing. We ain't perfect, just plain spoken usually.

On a related note, and I cannot believe I neglected to mention this until now...

Link

Oh. What I like best about the South, besides the fact that it ain't Massachusetts? In all honesty, the dialect ranks right up there. The speech is peppered with colorful language. People here are not buck toothed; they "could eat a punkin through a barn crack".
 
i'll make a point of reading those links tonight SnP. too lenghty to do so at work.
 
President Lincoln: Jefferson Davis was inaugurated a couple of weeks before Abe. That was a stab in the eye for a President.
The Oath of Office said:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Section 2 said:
Section. 2.
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; ...

He swore to protect the union & the Constitution. Acting as President & Commander in Chief, he did what he believed to be correct. I fully support the actions & merits of Abraham Lincoln. He was looking to preserve unity.

War crimes, as they are now called, are part of war. Caesar didn't stop them. Hannibal committed them, as did Alexander. Most, if not all, leaders have participated or ignored these actions. It's only with the founding of the United Nations that the world leaders have begun addressing the issue, in such a way as to create & enforce war rules. Don't bring up things that were commonplace when the rules have changed.

As to your argument about the media...that is not a North/South issue. That is an issue of liberal eliteism. A reporter for a storied & vast major metropolitan newspaper is going to try to impress the guys at Stanford or Yale before giving a rats ass about Vanderbilt or LSU...or Arizona State. They also find the hayseeds in Michigan or Iowa or Colorado to be hillbillies. If you don't live within the Boston/New York/Washington DC corridor or in Northern California (San Francisco region) they find us all loathesome. Wanna get even? Point your squirrel gun at 'em. They'll shit themselves & squeal like 9 year old girls.

We're gonna laugh at your accent. We're gonna laugh at New York & New England & California accents too. Deal with it. We're also gonna think that British people sound more intelligent than they probably are. It's human nature to apply variables to learned lessons. Hollywood tries to make southerners look dumb. Americans, in general, don't think so.

Back to the subject...sort of.

According to your provided (first) link, slavery was an issue, but hardly the only one. True enough. However, according to the Declarations of Causes of Seceding States, all four states clearly define slavery as a major disagreement with the north. It's written enough times to in fact call it the predominate issue. I am not foolish enough to believe that we went to war for slavery. I am smart enough to see that it mattered. A whole bunch. So much that 3 states even referred to slave-holding in the Ordinances of Secession.

I will hold my opinion that Lincoln did the right thing. Is there a right for a state to withdraw? I do not believe so. Much because, without states there is no United States. The south is a major part of the whole. We could live without them, and they us, but we'd all be much weaker & less protected.
 
Hold whatever opinion of Lincoln you choose, as I will. But at least be man enough to admit that, IF you consider his actions proper, he did the right thing for the wrong reason and in the wrong manner. That is cut and dried.

As is well documented, I don't harbor much respect for ol' Abe any longer. When it came to talking out of both sides of his mouth, he ranks right up there with Klinton. His actions were illegal. He went to war on his own people without congressional approval. He did it for special interest groups. Under any other circumstance, you would be the first to call that despicable. Maybe I'm not the one with the biggest bias.

My only comment about the entire issue of slavery: Slavery was despicable, deplorable, evil, inhuman, and perfectly legal in every state. More slaves were held in Union states than in the Confederacy. No, they were not treated better one place over the other. No, they were not afforded special status in one area over another. Yes, the majority of the abolitionists were in the north. Why? I'm glad you asked. They had no desire to compete with the price of slave labor in their factories. No altruistic motives, just simple economics...not the moral high ground some would have us believe. At the writing of the Constitution, Thomas Jefferson, a Virginian, wanted to make slavery illegal; Samuel Adams, of Massachusetts, insisted in keeping it a legal practice. So don't even bring the moral argument this way; it won't fly.

We will forever differ in our interpretations of the Tenth Amendment. I say it allows for a state to freely leave the Union upon the voted will of the people; you do not. Tomato, 'mater.

Without select states, the remainder are still united. No one down here wanted to overthrow anything; they wanted out. They wanted left alone. Slavery was a dying practice in Dixie in the 1860s; given time, it would have ended on its own. The movement was afoot to abolish it for several reasons. The issue was not the practice of slavery; it was who had the jurisdiction to allow or abolish it...the state or the feds.

I still dare anyone to read the Confederate constitution and tell me you disagree with the form of government it proposed. I could reprint the ideas in it, without quoting the source, and 95% of Americans would jump at the chance to live under such a document...until I told you what it was. Then you'd turn skittish, afraid somebody might think you were a racist, and renounce it with some glib statement. My ideals are not so freely won or lost. "'Tis the cause, not the fate of the cause, that is glorious!"
 
Gonz said:
As to your argument about the media...that is not a North/South issue. That is an issue of liberal eliteism.

Funny. I don't see Southern newspapers poking fun.

So, your take on Abe's assault on any newspaper that disagreed with his toy war would be...he was justified because he was trying to preserve the union? So it'd be OK if a president seized media outlets today because they disagreed with him? That doesn't sound like you at all.

Oh, and as to the timing of President Davis' inauguration. I'm fairly certain the Confederacy wasn't all that worried about how it was percieved by the leadership of the country they were divorcing. True to form, they were about taking care of themselves, not worrying about everybody else's business. They left that to Washington. And ya know what? To this very day, Washington is still busy minding the business of American citizens, right down to which doctor you are allowed to see when you're sick. Right down to whether you wear a seat belt or motorcycle helmet. Right down to where your kids go to school. Or whether a woman in Florida lives or dies. That's what you want? That's your idea of government of the people, by the people and for the people? I don't think either one of us believes that. One of us is willing to admit it.
 
FYI. I wanna hear some more about the moral high ground.

An excerpt:

THE LETTER:
"Camp near Camden, S. C., Feb 26, 1865.
My dear wife--I have no time for particulars. We have had a glorious time in this State. Unrestricted license to burn and plunder was the order of the day. The chivalry [meaning the Honourable & Chivalrous people of the South] have been stripped of most of their valuables. Gold watches, silver pitchers, cups, spoons, forks, &c., are as common in camp as blackberries.
The terms of plunder are as follows: Each company is required to exhibit the results of its operations at any given place--one-fifth and first choice falls to the share of the commander-in-chief and staff; one-fifth to the corps commanders and staff; one-fifth to field officers of regiments, and two-fifths to the company.
Officers are not allowed to join these expeditions without disguising themselves as privates. One of our corps commanders borrowed a suit of rough clothes from one of my men, and was successful in this place. He got a large quantity of silver (among other things an old-time milk pitcher) and a very fine gold watch from a Mrs DeSaussure, at this place. DeSaussure was one of the F. F. V.s of South Carolina, and was made to fork over liberally.. Officers over the rank of Captain are not made to put their plunder in the estimate for general distribution. This is very unfair, and for that reason, in order to protect themselves, subordinate officers and privates keep back every thing that they can carry about their persons, such as rings, earrings, breast pins, &c., of which, if I ever get home, I have about a quart. I am not joking--I have at least a quart of jewelry for you and all the girls, and some No. 1 diamond rings and pins among them.
General Sherman has silver and gold enough to start a bank. His share in gold watches alone at Columbia was two hundred and seventy-five. But I said I could not go into particulars. All the general officers and many besides had valuables of every description, down to embroidered ladies' pocket handkerchiefs. I have my share of them, too. We took gold and silver enough from the damned rebels to have redeemed their infernal currency twice over. This, (the currency), whenever we came across it, we burned, as we considered it utterly worthless.
I wish all the jewelry this army has could be carried to the "Old Bay State". It would deck her out in glorious style; but, alas! it will be scattered all over the North and Middle States. The damned niggers, as a general rule, prefer to stay at home, particularly after they found out that we only wanted the able-bodied men, (and to tell the truth, the youngest and best-looking women). Sometimes we took off whole families and plantations of niggers, by way of repaying secessionists. But the useless part of them we soon manage to lose; [one very effective was to "shoot at their bobbing heads as they swam rivers" after the army units crossed over], sometimes in crossing rivers, sometimes in other ways.
I shall write to you again from Wilmington, Goldsboro', or some other place in North Carolina. The order to march has arrived, and I must close hurriedly. Love to grandmother and aunt Charlotte. Take care of yourself and children. Don't show this letter out of the family.
Your affectionate husband, Thomas J Myers, Lieut.,
P.S. I will send this by the first flag of truce to be mailed, unless I have an opportunity of sending it at Hilton Head. Tell Sallie I am saving a pearl bracelet and ear-rings for her; but Lambert got the necklace and breast pin of the same set. I am trying to trade him out of them. These were taken from the Misses Jamison, daughters of the President of the South Carolina Secession Convention. We found these on our trip through Georgia." End of Letter.
The letter was addressed to Mrs. Thomas J. Myers, Boston, Massachusetts. end


The full analysis
 
You can't really blame the slaves for staying at home. If they joined the Union Army, they were used as cannon fodder. Most of them were unarmed, and sent in waves to weaken Confederate lines. If they were captured by the Confederacy, they were shot out-of-hand, no matter which state of 'freedom' they were at when they joined the Union army. Word/rumor travelled fast in those days...same as today. ;)
 
Gato_Solo said:
You can't really blame the slaves for staying at home. If they joined the Union Army, they were used as cannon fodder. Most of them were unarmed, and sent in waves to weaken Confederate lines. If they were captured by the Confederacy, they were shot out-of-hand, no matter which state of 'freedom' they were at when they joined the Union army. Word/rumor travelled fast in those days...same as today. ;)

Far from accurate. Slaves were freed when they fought for the Confederacy, and were treated as equals in the Confederate army. It was the Union who, as is stated in thie above letter, took the ones they wanted, and then shot the rest while they were crossing rivers.

Get the facts, people. It ain't what they brainwashed you with in 10th grade.
 
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