Iraqi report condemns Blackwater

spike

New Member
BAGHDAD -- Attempts by investigators to piece together what happened around Baghdad's Nisoor Square last month still have not yielded a full and mutually agreed rendering of what caused Blackwater guards to open fire there on Sept 16. An Iraqi government report -- examined by The Associated Press -- is the latest in a wave of inquests from Baghdad to Washington. It comes down hard on Blackwater, demanding that the security company it leave Iraq within six month and blaming it for killing 17 civilians. The previous death toll was at least 11.

The Iraqi report as well as witness accounts and statements from Iraqi officials to the AP put forward new details on the deadly chain of events. Blackwater and U.S. officials have refused to comment on the events. Blackwater maintains that its guards opened fire only after coming under attack. No Iraqi witness has been found to corroborate that claim.

The first convoy

Three black SUVs, each fitted with armored plates and bulletproof windows, made up the heart of the convoy. The front and rear were protected by Blackwater USA gun trucks, known as Mambas, each with two 7.62 mm machine guns.

The vehicles snaked through the checkpoints and blast walls of the Green Zone on the morning of Sept. 16.

Kerry Pelzman, a USAID specialist helping rebuild Iraqi businesses, schools and other infrastructure, rode in one of the SUVs. Her appointment was about two miles from the nearest Green Zone entrance in a neighborhood of opulent homes once occupied by members of Saddam Hussein's regime.

Within a few minutes, Pelzman was at her destination in a secure compound for a planning session on Izdihar -- a U.S.-Iraqi joint venture company working to rebuild Iraq's badly damaged services and funded by USAID on a three-year contract.

At about noon, a car bomb exploded about 200 yards away. Blackwater guards, worried that the bomb was the beginning of a larger attack, hustled Pelzman back into the vehicles. The convoy raced back toward the Green Zone.

Backup called

As Pelzman's convoy was preparing to move toward the Nisoor Square traffic circle -- just on the edge of the Green Zone -- her Blackwater detail radioed for backup, fearing that the explosion might be a diversion for a kidnapping operation against her and others in the compound.

At about 12:15 p.m., four more Mambas arrived at the traffic circle. Their plan was to watch over the traffic choke-point until the convoy passed.

Shooting starts

One of the Blackwater gunners -- in the last Mamba that arrived in the square -- opened fire on an approaching white car. The driver, a 20-year-old medical student, was shot through the forehead and apparently died instantly. The car, with the transmission still in gear, continued moving slowly forward. His mother was in the passenger seat. A traffic policeman said the Blackwater guards started firing at the car again, setting it afire.

The car immediately behind the white car came under fire. A boy riding with his family was killed. The boy's father said he was interviewed by three U.S. military officers Sept. 26 at the Iraqi National Police headquarters. He said he heard other witnesses telling the U.S. officers that they had seen a Blackwater guard trying to stop the shooting. The witnesses said the guard even pulled his gun on the other shooters, who ignored the threat and continued firing.

Route changed

At some point during the chaos, the Blackwater guards in the square must have radioed the Pelzman convoy and warned it not to take its planned route back to the Green Zone. No witness ever saw it in the square. Pelzman declined to comment to the AP.

Once shooting stopped in the square, the Blackwater guards moved the four gun trucks clockwise around the traffic circle -- against the traffic flow -- and headed north toward where the Pelzman convoy may have been rushing back to the Green Zone by a different route.

"Even as they were withdrawing, they were shooting randomly to clear the traffic," said Ahmed Abdul-Timan, 20, who was standing in the middle of the traffic circle throughout the shooting.

In addition, he said two helicopters were hovering overhead and shooting into the melee in the square below. The government report reached a similar conclusion.

The government report said a second Blackwater convoy -- apparently not Pelzman's -- tried to move through the square shortly after the shooting.

Iraqi police used water trucks to block the SUVs from entering the square. It moved into an intense standoff -- weapons pointed by both sides. The face-off was defused when two U.S. military Humvees arrived and persuaded the Blackwater drivers and guards to turn around and return to the Green Zone.

http://www.star-telegram.com/279/story/261715.html

I had dinner with a military advisor last week who told me all the Blackwater guys are psycho, make several times what regular military does, and they have practically no accountability. He would like to see them completely pulled out and replaced with military.
 
no accountability? wrong
not enough...maybe

they are fighting War, the way War is to be fought IMO.
They are fighting War the way the candy asses in DC should Let the U.S. military fight.
 
http://www.star-telegram.com/279/story/261715.html

I had dinner with a military advisor last week who told me all the Blackwater guys are psycho, make several times what regular military does, and they have practically no accountability. He would like to see them completely pulled out and replaced with military.

:rofl:
1. Most of the 'psycho' Blackwater guys are ex-SEALS or Rangers. They're SUPPOSED to be psycho.
2. As for your dinner with a 'military advisor', why is he/she having dinner there, instead of being over here, where his/her 'advice' will do any good?
3. The reason why Blackwater, et al exists is because of the military troop cutbacks and base closures in the late 80's and early 90's. Civilians created this mess by not thinking past their own selves, and Congress compounded it through their incompetence, and Rumsfeld aggravated it through his mis-management. What your so-called 'advisor' should be talking about is a formal declaration of war with all of its pitfalls...including a draft to bring troop levels up so that contractors are not needed, and rationing certain items to the general public, which would cause you, personally, to be part of the war effort. Of course...it would also mean that you wouldn't be at home with your advisor, either. You'd be in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, or some other hot, dry location whining about getting shot at.

:rofl4:
 
1. Seals and Rangers are required to be mentally insane? Do you have documentation on this?

2. He's served in Iraq twice and is currently doing stateside work. His son is there now. You have something against military EVER returning to the US without you insulting them? :rofl4:

3. Blackwater wasn't formed until 1997 so your ridiculous cause/effect is pretty laughable. What he should be talking about is whatever he wants so you can whine about someone disagreeing with you. :laugh:
 
1. Seals and Rangers are required to be mentally insane? Do you have documentation on this?

DO you have any documentation that they are already?

spike said:
2. He's served in Iraq twice and is currently doing stateside work. His son is there now. You have something against military EVER returning to the US without you insulting them? :rofl4:

Never said that. I didn't insult him, however. I questioned his motives due to your lack of information. I still do, because you make no mention of who he advises, and what his role was over here.

spike said:
3. Blackwater wasn't formed until 1997 so your ridiculous cause/effect is pretty laughable. What he should be talking about is whatever he wants so you can whine about someone disagreeing with you. :laugh:

My cause and effect is even more valid. You just made it for me. Why was Blackwater formed? I think you can come up with a correct answer for that if you try...:rolleyes:
 
DO you have any documentation that they are already?

He said Blackwater are psychos. You said Rangers and SEALS are supposed to be. I'm asking if you have some reason to believe Rangers and SEALS are supposed to be mentally damaged?

Never said that. I didn't insult him, however. I questioned his motives due to your lack of information. I still do, because you make no mention of who he advises, and what his role was over here.

Actually you said that his advice is not doing any good unless he is currently over there.

My cause and effect is even more valid.

You've shown zero cause and effect. :yawn:
 
He said Blackwater are psychos. You said Rangers and SEALS are supposed to be. I'm asking if you have some reason to believe Rangers and SEALS are supposed to be mentally damaged?

Never said "mentally damaged". You did. Nice try, though. Your lack of knowledge is showing quite nicely.


spike said:
Actually you said that his advice is not doing any good unless he is currently over there.

Boy, you sure have a lack of comprehension when you want to, don't you. I asked a question, which you haven't answered, and you try to change it to a statement. I'll let that one go...for now...

spike said:
You've shown zero cause and effect. :yawn:

So the drawdowns of the 80's and 90's have no correlation with the formation of Blackwater? You're quite blind to reality by issuing that statement. There's not a contractor here that would be employed if the manning levels of the 80's were still available. All you need do is check the numbers. Of course, that would require checking facts for yourself instead of being spoon-fed pap from your so-called 'military advisor'. Hey! I know! Repeat some of his/her fantastic and intelligent advice, and the reasons he/she came to those conclusions. No names, please. Wouldn't want to break OPSEC...
 
Never said "mentally damaged". You did. Nice try, though. Your lack of knowledge is showing quite nicely.

You're aware of what psycho means right? So go ahead tell us about this psycho requirement for the SEALS and Rangers already.

Boy, you sure have a lack of comprehension when you want to, don't you. I asked a question, which you haven't answered, and you try to change it to a statement. I'll let that one go...for now...

Comprehension is just fine.

"why is he/she having dinner there, instead of being over here, where his/her 'advice' will do any good?"

Clearly you indicated that his advice does no good unless he is over there.

So the drawdowns of the 80's and 90's have no correlation with the formation of Blackwater? You're quite blind to reality by issuing that statement.

No there is no correlation at all. You're blind if you think there is.

There's not a contractor here that would be employed if the manning levels of the 80's were still available.

Hey they wouldn't be employed if we weren't there either. Check the numbers.

Of course, that would require checking facts for yourself instead of being spoon-fed pap from your so-called 'military advisor'.

What's with the "so-called" and the "pap" comments? Do you really having nothing but insults because he thinks the military is capable of doing Blackwater's job? Is it because he's in a position where people listen to him?
 
You're aware of what psycho means right? So go ahead tell us about this psycho requirement for the SEALS and Rangers already.

Both the Webster's version and the slang version. Clearly you stick to Webster's when you know you're off-base.


spike said:
Comprehension is just fine.

"why is he/she having dinner there, instead of being over here, where his/her 'advice' will do any good?"

Clearly you indicated that his advice does no good unless he is over there.

Once again. I asked a question. Provide an answer.


spike said:
No there is no correlation at all. You're blind if you think there is.

Your own 'military advisor' friend is also blind then. Isn't he the one saying those jobs should belong to the military? Isn't the lack of military members directly responsible for the formation of those companies? Your lack of comprehension is totally glaring.

spike said:
Hey they wouldn't be employed if we weren't there either. Check the numbers.

I'll toss that one right back to you. Who voted to send us here? Congress decrees, the President orders, and we go. Since we didn't have the amount of troops needed to do the job, we had to hire outsiders. You really don't know how this works, do you?


spike said:
What's with the "so-called" and the "pap" comments? Do you really having nothing but insults because he thinks the military is capable of doing Blackwater's job? Is it because he's in a position where people listen to him?

How are those insults? I don't know for sure if your buddy is a military advisor or not. I also have no idea what position hes in, and, most likely, niether do you. The pap I was referring to is the media you choose to listen to. If those things hurt your feelings, then too bad.

BTW...if the best your 'military advisor' can come up with is soldiers doing guard duty, he's already late to that party. I've been saying that we needed more troops since a year after the invasion.
 
I swear to God and all of you that if this gets nasty and certain ones of you start complaining about how the other is treating you I am gonna lock this thread instantly.
I am sick of folks not being able to take as good as they give. As I said somewhere earlier if you want the ability to say whatever you like you can accept the same from others.
 
Both the Webster's version and the slang version. Clearly you stick to Webster's when you know you're off-base.

So where am I off base? Just trying to get you to stop avoiding the question.


Once again. I asked a question. Provide an answer.

Question was answered in the very next post. I'll recap:

"why is he/she having dinner there, instead of being over here, where his/her 'advice' will do any good?"

"He's served in Iraq twice and is currently doing stateside work. His son is there now."

Now answer my question. Why do you think his advice does no good unless he is currently over there?

Your own 'military advisor' friend is also blind then. Isn't he the one saying those jobs should belong to the military? Isn't the lack of military members directly responsible for the formation of those companies?

We had some massive military shortage in 1997? Of course the only solution was to pay $400k+ per Blackwater per year. :laugh:

I'll toss that one right back to you. Who voted to send us here? Congress decrees, the President orders, and we go. Since we didn't have the amount of troops needed to do the job, we had to hire outsiders. You really don't know how this works, do you?

So since the Pres and Congress sent us to Iraq in 2003 of course that means that the 80's caused Blackwater to form in 1997.

You're right, I have no idea how your head works. :rofl3:


How are those insults? I don't know for sure if your buddy is a military advisor or not.

I clearly said he is a miliatary advisor.

I also have no idea what position hes in, and, most likely, niether do you.

I know exactly what position he's in since he's working with my company.

The pap I was referring to is the media you choose to listen to. If those things hurt your feelings, then too bad.

Now you're just lying. The quote was "pap from your so-called 'military advisor". How is that referring to the media? :laugh:

BTW...if the best your 'military advisor' can come up with is soldiers doing guard duty, he's already late to that party. I've been saying that we needed more troops since a year after the invasion.

How would you know when he started saying that? Why doesn't anyone take your advice since you're 'so-called military'?
 
The colonel was furious. "Can you believe it? They actually drew their weapons on U.S. soldiers." He was describing a 2006 car accident, in which an SUV full of Blackwater operatives had crashed into a U.S. Army Humvee on a street in Baghdad's Green Zone. The colonel, who was involved in a follow-up investigation and spoke on the condition he not be named, said the Blackwater guards disarmed the U.S. Army soldiers and made them lie on the ground at gunpoint until they could disentangle the SUV. His account was confirmed by the head of another private security company.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21163806/site/newsweek/

Gonz said:
Thank Blackwater.
 
So where am I off base? Just trying to get you to stop avoiding the question.




Question was answered in the very next post. I'll recap:

"why is he/she having dinner there, instead of being over here, where his/her 'advice' will do any good?"

"He's served in Iraq twice and is currently doing stateside work. His son is there now."

Now answer my question. Why do you think his advice does no good unless he is currently over there?

Because he's not advising anybody in harms way. Plus, his son has nothing to do with his advisory capacity.


spike said:
We had some massive military shortage in 1997? Of course the only solution was to pay $400k+ per Blackwater per year. :laugh:

I'll re-iterate because you can't, or won't, see the link...

me said:
The reason why Blackwater, et al exists is because of the military troop cutbacks and base closures in the late 80's and early 90's.


spike said:
So since the Pres and Congress sent us to Iraq in 2003 of course that means that the 80's caused Blackwater to form in 1997.

You're right, I have no idea how your head works. :rofl3:

Never said head. You, however, did. I guess it means that you are clueless as to how it works, and would rather castigate what I said than to understand what I said.



spike said:
I clearly said he is a miliatary advisor.

You say a lot of things...most of which do not hold up to scrutiny. ;)


spike said:
I know exactly what position he's in since he's working with my company.

Well? What is it?

spike said:
Now you're just lying. The quote was "pap from your so-called 'military advisor". How is that referring to the media? :laugh:

My bad. I'll take that 'media' reference back. Still pap, AFAIK. You still haven't said what he does...


spike said:
How would you know when he started saying that? Why doesn't anyone take your advice since you're 'so-called military'?

All you need do is ask others who can check. Perhaps your so-called military advisor...:laugh:
 
Because he's not advising anybody in harms way.

That's an unfounded bullshit comment.

I'll re-iterate because you can't, or won't, see the link...

Cause you can't see that there's no link. :laugh:

Never said head. You, however, did. I guess it means that you are clueless as to how it works, and would rather castigate what I said than to understand what I said.

I understand what you said. It's just that it's ignorant nonsense.

You say a lot of things...most of which do not hold up to scrutiny.

See, the only one saying things that don't hold up to scrutiny is you.

Well? What is it?

Base security project.

My bad. I'll take that 'media' reference back.

See, you don't hold up to even slight scrutiny.

All you need do is ask others who can check. Perhaps your so-called military advisor...:laugh:

You want me to ask the military advisor why nobody takes your advice since you're 'so-called' military? :rofl3:

A little scrutiny would show that that makes no sense. How would he know why people don't listen to you? I would guess he would just think it's because you're clueless.
 
That's an unfounded bullshit comment.


Riiiggghhhttt. Perhaps you can explain to everyone here how, and why, its bullshit...


spike said:
Cause you can't see that there's no link. :laugh:

That shows how ignorant of manpower shrotages you really are. BTW...since you don't seem to have the capability, I searched this out for you.


spike said:
I understand what you said. It's just that it's ignorant nonsense.

Only because you can't understand it. The only ignorant nonsense thats being spouted is coming straight from your keyboard.


spike said:
See, the only one saying things that don't hold up to scrutiny is you.

So you don't make mistakes...interesting. :rolleyes:

spike said:
Base security project.

Ahhh...a security guard is now a military advisor. How quaint.




spike said:
See, you don't hold up to even slight scrutiny.

Instead of sticking to the point, you once again dive into minor details. I make mistakes from time to time.


spike said:
You want me to ask the military advisor why nobody takes your advice since you're 'so-called' military? :rofl3:

Not the question I asked. Feel free to be as obtuse as you like when it comes to following the conversation, though, if it makes you feel better.

spike said:
A little scrutiny would show that that makes no sense. How would he know why people don't listen to you? I would guess he would just think it's because you're clueless.

Once again, you don't see the point I'm making. Your lack of insight into how things work is evident for all to see, though.
 
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