Is it really that hard

[Gonz]

The US Constitution was not intended to cover people other than Americans. It is specifically designed to make the head of the Excutive Branch the Commander in Chief. That was until today.

WASHINGTON | The Supreme Court on Thursday rejected for the third time President Bush’s policy of holding foreign prisoners under exclusive control of the military at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, ruling that the men have a right to seek their freedom before a federal judge.

The justices, in a 5-4 vote, said the U.S. Constitution enshrined the “privilege of habeas corpus” — or the right to go before a judge — as a safeguard of liberty. And that right extends even to foreigners who are captured in the war on terrorism, the court said, particularly when they have been held up to six years without charges.

So, as of now, if you commit a crime or act of war against the US, during peace or war, acting as an Unlawful Enemy Combatant, you are hereby an American with all it's right & privileges.

“Within the Constitution’s separation of powers structures, few exercises of judicial power are as legitimate or as necessary as the responsibility to hear challenges to the authority of the Executive to imprison a person,” Justice Anthony M. Kennedy said for the court. “The detainees in these cases are entitled to a prompt habeas corpus hearing.”

Kennedy is an idiot. These are not criminals. These are people who were committing acts of war. They were committing acts of war against the United States outside of the United States. They are being held outside the United States. They are under the authority & jurisdiction of the US Military, not the Judicial Branch, Can you imagine if Tojo had been given due process under the Constitution?

This ruling is a major step backwards for Americans, all but guaranteeing we hold few or no POWs (they'll all be killed in battle) and that those that are held are released, to kill & maim again, because the US will not give away military secrets to a court of law.

Source

For whom the bell tolls

 

[spike]

Suspects should have a day in court and not held indefinitely. I notice you've already declared them guilty though.

Good work Supreme Court!

 

[Gonz]

Suspects should have a day in court and not held indefinitely.

They aren't suspects, they're military combatants, the enemy. This is not a criminal case.

 

[Cerise]

I guess this means we'll soon be outsourcing the care and feeding of our enemy combatants to Iraq or Afghanistan, where they will be able to enjoy a speedy trial followed by a quicker execution.

Or maybe we should totally eliminate the issue and take no prisoners. After all, dead terrorists will have no need of the US Constitution.

 

[catocom]

I guess this means we'll soon be outsourcing the care and feeding of our enemy combatants to Iraq or Afghanistan, where they will be able to enjoy a speedy trial followed by a quicker execution.

Or maybe we should totally eliminate the issue and take no prisoners. After all, dead terrorists will have no need of the US Constitution.

I'll take no prisoners for $1000 alex...

EDIT: Shock and Awe, w/no nation rebuilding.

 

[spike]

They aren't suspects, they're military combatants, the enemy. This is not a criminal case.

They are suspects....or suspected military combatants. Many of them got there on nothing more than suspicion.

 

[PT]

They are suspects....or suspected military combatants. Many of them got there on nothing more than suspicion.

You're going to have to talk louder than that to get through to them, their heads are buried pretty deep.

So, with this logic, if you are traveling around the world, and (Russian, Iraqi, Afgani, Turkish, French, British, Insert any other country name here) decides to detain you indefinitely because of the way you look, or because you happened to be close to where a bomb went off, or a gun was fired, that's perfectly acceptable? Tit for tat, Gonz, we can either be civilized and be an example, or we can sink to their level. I'd rather be an example.

Now, I realize that some of these people were caught with guns on them, some were caught with plans and other evidence that makes us believe that they are terrorists, but many were rounded up and detained simply because of where they were, or on suspicion of being a terrorist. Even in the worst wars, you don't just shoot at someone that might be the enemy, unless again you want to be classified in the same class as them.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

Personally, I have zero pity for the enemy who wishes me dead for no reason other than my locale. I have no pity for the enemy who attacks me. I have no pity for the enemy who dances in the streets when news of an American death is made public. I have no pity for the enemy who would cause me harm. I personally have not impeded these people's lives one iota. I am not a member of the military and as such easily identifiable to them as a threat to their own safety, warranted or no. I make no policy, I make no decisions, I make no treaties, I pose no threat whatsoever to these people. They still wish me dead. Maybe I'm wrong; don't think I am.

To quote Jesse James Dupree:

You say,'Fuck you!', I say 'Fuck WITH me!'

That having been established, I harbor no pity for those detained under suspicion of terrorism. I don't buy the "wrong place wrong time when big bomb go boom" theory advanced above. To get yourself detained I think you'd need to be doing a little more than standing idly by smokin' a Marlboro when the feces struck the oscillating air circulation device. Maybe I'm wrong; don't think I am.

Conversely, to keep these (searching carefully for the proper word here) individuals locked up indeterminately is hard to stomach. I am quite aware that a net cast broadly into the open sea catches more than tuna. I also understand why they are held, or at least one reason for it: The hopes that more information may be learned from them by detaining them. Maybe I'm wrong; don't think I am.

So. We've discussed on here previously the merits of keeping serial killers alive to study them versus executing them straight away. Most folks wanna throw the switch as soon as possible. Some of those same folks are now advocating detaining these people to gain information from them.

I see a contradiction. Maybe I'm wrong; don't think I am.

As to the granting of certain constitutional protections for them...I'm against it. Why? Because I'm a citizen of this country. I know that when I choose to travel abroad I forfeit some of those rights temporarily, until I get back here. I become a foreigner. By choice. When in Rome...

Surely there has to be a solution to expedite the judicial procedings against these individuals short of granting the whole shebang to them. It is there that our focus should have been placed, rather than where it ended up. Maybe I'm wrong...

but I don't think I am.

 

[Gonz]

They are suspects....or suspected military combatants. Many of them got there on nothing more than suspicion.

If a fucking war! We're not tracking down auto thieves.

You really can't be this dense.

 

[spike]

There was no declared war.

Talk about dense. Do you understand how the words "suspects" and "suspicion" are related?

You don't just waltz into a country that was no threat to yours and start rounding up people based on vague suspicions, imprison them for years, and leave them no method by which to prove their innocence.

Many of the prisoners abused at the Abu Ghraib prison were innocent Iraqis picked up at random by US troops, and incarcerated by under-qualified intelligence officers, a former US interrogator from the notorious jail told the Guardian.

Torin Nelson, who served as a military intelligence officer at Guantánamo Bay before moving to Abu Ghraib as a private contractor last year, blamed the abuses on a failure of command in US military intelligence and an over-reliance on private firms. He alleged that those companies were so anxious to meet the demand for their services that they sent "cooks and truck drivers" to work as interrogators.

"Military intelligence operations need to drastically change in order for something like this not to happen again," Mr Nelson said. He spoke to the Guardian in a series of interviews by phone and email.

He claimed that "many of the detainees at the prison are actually innocent of any acts against the coalition and are being held until the bureaucracy there can go through their cases and verify their need to be released."

"One case in point is a detainee whom I recommended for release and months later was still sitting in the same tent with no change in his status."

Mr Nelson said that the same systemic problems were also responsible for large numbers of Afghans being mistakenly swept into Guantánamo Bay. He estimated that "30-40%" of the inmates at the controversial prison camp had no connection to terrorism.

"There are people who should never have been sent over there. I was involved in the process of reviewing people for possible release and I can say definitely that they should have been released and released a lot sooner," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/07/iraq.usa


Now of course you could make some silly generalizations to make you feel better like SNP about "the enemy who wishes me dead for no reason other than my locale" but that would be dumb as there is no basis for thinking all Iraqis feel that way.

 

[PT]

Conversely, to keep these (searching carefully for the proper word here) individuals locked up indeterminately is hard to stomach. I am quite aware that a net cast broadly into the open sea catches more than tuna. I also understand why they are held, or at least one reason for it: The hopes that more information may be learned from them by detaining them. Maybe I'm wrong; don't think I am.

And that is where I have a problem as well. If we allow them to treat human beings like this, it's going down that slippery slope you all love to bring up. Make it ok to hold these people indefinitely, and you take one step closer to them holding citizens indefinitely. I don't agree that we should give them the full accord of the constitution, but we should at least treat them with some decency, and attempt to figure out if they are actually guilty of the crimes we are accusing them of. Right now we are holding people in Guantanamo Bay that have been there for six years. Now, in fairness, we have released almost two thirds of them without charges being filed, that alone should tell you something. Makes that net theory sound a little more feasible, huh?

Since 2002, more than 500 detainees have departed Guantanamo for other countries. As of May 2, approximately 270 detainees were being held at Guantanamo. http://www.america.gov/st/usg-english/2008/June/20080613164021abretnuh0.5433161.html

 

[Gonz]

Now, in fairness, we have released almost two thirds of them without charges being filed, that alone should tell you something.

It tells me they outlived their usefulness. The military works on a different scale than the justice dept.

What is the difference between, say, a group of Nazi POWs & a group of suspected (for spike) terrorists in Gitmo? They were both held until the war was over & they both were used to gather info. The mainj difference is, the Germans wore uniforms. These folks don't. They are specifically EXCLUDED from the Geneva Convention.

"If you get caught, we'll deny any knowledge of you or this operation". Same thing.

 

[Cerise]

If a fucking war! We're not tracking down auto thieves.

You really can't be this dense.

You can lead a lib to reality but you can't make them accept it.

 

[Cerise]

Now, in fairness, we have released almost two thirds of them without charges being filed, that alone should tell you something.

I wonder what the recidivism rate for former Club Gitmo members is?

SAN JUAN - A Kuwaiti freed from Guantanamo Bay carried out a suicide car bombing recently in Iraq, the U.S. military said Wednesday, confirming what is believed to be the first such attack by a former detainee at the U.S. military detention center in Cuba.

Abdallah Salih al-Ajmi took part in one of three suicide bomb attacks last month that targeted Iraqi security forces in the northern city of Mosul, said U.S. Navy Cmdr. Scott Rye, a military spokesman in Baghdad. At least seven people were killed in the attacks.

Up to 36 former Guantanamo detainees have resumed hostilities against the U.S., including some who have been taken back into custody or killed, the Pentagon says. Al-Ajmi is apparently the first to have become a suicide bomber, said Navy Cmdr. Jeffrey Gordon, a Pentagon spokesman.

"There is an implied future risk to U.S. and allied interests with every detainee who is released or transferred from Guantanamo," Gordon told The Associated Press.http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-web-0507-guantanamomay08,0,2743601.story?track=rs

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - A Pakistani Taliban leader blew himself up to avoid arrest by government forces near the Afghan border on Tuesday, three years after his release from U.S. detention in Guantanamo Bay, officials said.

Shortly after his release in March 2004, Mehsud shot to prominence by kidnapping two Chinese engineers working in South Waziristan, a region known as a hotbed of support for al Qaeda and the Taliban. http://sweetness-light.com/archive/released-gitmo-terrorist-blows-himself-up

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

Guess there's a couple we should have detained a little longer huh? No problem, we'll just send spike and PT over to apologize to the families of their victims. "So sorry we let this murdering terrorist bastard go, but we wanted to protect their rights. I'm sure you understand. I mean, what if they had been innocent?"

Oopsie.

We're making an omelette here. Get out of the way and let the eggs be cracked.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

*light bulb*

It just hit me. NOW I understand.

Some people aren't used to being around guilty people all the time, therefore y'all ain't heard the pack of lies they tell 735 times yet. So y'all fall for their shit.

May I then suggest you kindly get the hell out of the way and let the trained professionals deal with the situation? I ain't told nobody how to rebuild a computer lately, or how to...do whatever it is spike does...outside of snivelling that is...because I don't know how to do it. I'm not accustomed to dealing with motherboards and diodes and them other gizmos in the box. I leave that to those with experience. Too much to ask in return?

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

Now, in fairness, we have released almost two thirds of them without charges being filed, that alone should tell you something. Makes that net theory sound a little more feasible, huh?

Damn straight it does. It tells me properly trained fishermen know the difference between a tuna and a bluegill.

You fish much?

It also tells me that 1/3 of them are PRECISELY where they ought to be. And from the stories above, maybe we threw a couple tuna away by mistake. That'll happen when the man who owns the fishing company but has never fished in his life starts putting too much pressure on his employees. Me, I prefer to let the fishermen fish and stay out of their way.

Maybe more people should do the same.

 

[chcr]

It also tells me that 1/3 of them are PRECISELY where they ought to be.

"Major Strasser has been shot. Round up the usual suspects."

 

[Gato_Solo]

You all know that if Congress had done their duty and declared war, this whole point would not exist. You also know that, if Congress had done their duty and declared war, people like spike would be hiding in Canada, right? Now...for the final point. If Congress had no intention of declaring war, then they should have been honest enough with the military to say 'no go' in the first place. We are being used as pawns to fluff up somebodies rhetoric.

"The troops are suffering and dying. We must leave that territory at once..." You know those guys. They voted to finance this effort with no intention of standing behind their initial decision. Now they use a body count to proclaim their innocence, and their lack of understanding to shield their incompetence. Anybody who says they voted for the war until they voted against it should be immediately removed from office, since they are KNOWINGLY playing political games with peoples lives.

"We need to see this thing through to the end, no matter the cost"...You know these guys, too. They are the ones who decided that we need to flex some muscle after too many years of sitting idle, letting those knuckleheads over there let the wolves inside the chicken coop. They stayed quiet for over 30 years, and now decided to do something? (1972, for those who haven't the initiative to backtrack) Then they let a total wimp run the country for 4 years, and he let the same type of idiot take over an Embassy (an act of war in any definition), and did absolutely nothing except plan a botched rescue operation...delayed until almost election time, of course.

Each time, the terrorists grew bolder, and we, as a country, did almost nothing. Hell...we even helped them in some of their fights. We forgot that feeding a strange animal doesn't make it your pet...and now, after 30 years of doing practically nothing, the animal turns on us...its feeder and appeaser, and attacks, and only now we have a problem? This is the time to do the right thing. It doesn't matter which side you are on, as, since we picked this fight, we cannot lose this fight. Right, or wrong, we now have a duty to end this in a way that protects us in the future.

 

[2minkey]

i think we fed a lot of animals.

great post gato.