Litmus test, or try for 15 minutes...

[Gato_Solo]

I know that gays serve in the military. I'd be a complete idiot if I suggested otherwise. However...regulations are, for good or bad, regulations, and they are violated at your own peril. Before anyone jumps in and starts to say things like 'discrimination', I'll let you know up-front that the DoD states that any sexual position other than 'missionary' is deemed 'un-natural'...that includes oral sex, folks. People have been discharged for it in the past...

By Jonathan Darman
Updated: 2:56 p.m. ET March 13, 2004

Mar. 13 - Jason Tiner wasn’t interested in coming quietly out of the closet. After eight years in the Navy, he’d seen too many of his gay friends disappear--rooted out by the military’s "Don’t ask, don’t tell" policy, kicked out of the military, banished from his life. He’d hidden relationships with men from friends, concealed his identity from his commanding officer, lied to keep his job. He’d spent too much time keeping quiet. It was time to speak out.

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So Tiner came out roaring in about as public a manner as he could. As a contestant on the reality dating show, "Boy Meets Boy," Tiner effectively announced his sexuality to his fellow service members, his superior officers and the world. "I wasn’t going to do any kissing, hugging, heavy petting or anything like that," Tiner said. "I was going on the show to make a political statement."

His timing couldn’t have been better for getting his message heard. "Boy Meets Boy" aired in the summer of 2003, perhaps the gayest summer on record. The Supreme Court had just ruled state sodomy laws unconstitutional in the Lawrence v. Texas case, saying in no uncertain terms that unnecessary discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation was wrong. On television, "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" had heterosexual males begging for mercy (and moisturizer) to the delight of audiences nationwide. Tiner was quickly eliminated from the "Boy Meets Boy" but in media ink, he was the series’ breakout star. When the army discharged him in mid-August for violating the "Don’t ask, don’t tell" ban, gay rights advocates heralded him as living proof of the injustice the U.S. military serves out to gay men and lesbians who just want to serve.

Source...

 

[Ms Ann Thrope]

What would it take for the military to change their policy?

 

[Gato_Solo]

What would it take for the military to change their policy?

Executive order with the backing of Congress. Just as another tidbit about regulations, people still get court martialed for adultry.

 

[Ms Ann Thrope]

OK, here's my chance to get jumped on for insensitivity and bigotry: if you're gay or a lesbian, why on earth would you consider joining the military? It's clear that you're not wanted there, so why put yourself in a position where you will have to deny who you are 24/7?

 

[Oz]

I'll let you know up-front that the DoD states that any sexual position other than 'missionary' is deemed 'un-natural'...that includes oral sex, folks. People have been discharged for it in the past...

No wonder all those sgt majors come accross as bad tempered buggers.......

 

[Gato_Solo]

OK, here's my chance to get jumped on for insensitivity and bigotry: if you're gay or a lesbian, why on earth would you consider joining the military? It's clear that you're not wanted there, so why put yourself in a position where you will have to deny who you are 24/7?

It's not as simple as that. Some actually do want to serve in the military, and they forgo their sexual wonts for the time that they are in. That's not breaking regulations, so they cannot be prosecuted or persecuted (legally). In fact, nobody knows that they're gay unless they actually say something, or do something publically, in which case they get the old cover-all charge of unprofessional conduct (enlisted)/conduct unbecoming (officer). It won't be as easy as some would like to think, mostly because, while it was 'illegal' most folks never saw it. If they allow it, then people are going to have to adjust. Regulations, however, can also come into play with that...Take for instance a regulation regrding PDA...That one still exists...and a regulation prohibiting physical violence unless it's to save a life. It won't be easy, but it can be done...

 

[Ms Ann Thrope]

I know what you're saying, but I still can't wrap my brain around why anyone would WANT to be in an organisation where they have to deny who they are. I suppose some of them manage to "pass" but at what emotional and psychological cost? Why put yourself through such an ordeal? Why would any gay or lesbian want to be a part of such an organisation?

 

[Gato_Solo]

I know what you're saying, but I still can't wrap my brain around why anyone would WANT to be in an organisation where they have to deny who they are. I suppose some of them manage to "pass" but at what emotional and psychological cost? Why put yourself through such an ordeal? Why would any gay or lesbian want to be a part of such an organisation?

You'd have to ask them. Could be anything from the discipline to the folks in uniform. It could also be an attack on the strict nature of military regulations which govern 90% of the time a person has when serving...

 

[chcr]

Some actually do want to serve in the military, and they forgo their sexual wonts for the time that they are in.

I'm not sure that's correct, Gato. I know of several gay folks in the military who continue their lifestyle in their off time. They are simply discreet about it. In at least one case, I know for a fact that a person's immediate superior is aware of the person's orientation, but also believes in the "don't ask, don't tell" policy (found out by accident). They all do, more or less, or they wouldn't (I assume) be in the military. This guy, for whatever reason, decided he could no longer abide by those regulations. In the military, if you can't abide by the rules, at the very least you're out, correct?

Natalie, I've only ever really discussed the reason with one of these people. There has been a member of his family in the army each generation since the revolution, and he wanted to be the one from this generation. He's an officer, went in out of college. I don't like the military's current policy either, but I'm not really sure a more open policy would work. This one does, at least for the people I know who are having to deal with it (on both sides, it seems to work okay for Gato too). If I had a better answer, I would certainly put it forth, but I don't.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I'm not sure that's correct, Gato. I know of several gay folks in the military who continue their lifestyle in their off time. They are simply discreet about it. In at least one case, I know for a fact that a person's immediate superior is aware of the person's orientation, but also believes in the "don't ask, don't tell" policy (found out by accident). They all do, more or less, or they wouldn't (I assume) be in the military. This guy, for whatever reason, decided he could no longer abide by those regulations. In the military, if you can't abide by the rules, at the very least you're out, correct?

Natalie, I've only ever really discussed the reason with one of these people. There has been a member of his family in the army each generation since the revolution, and he wanted to be the one from this generation. He's an officer, went in out of college. I don't like the military's current policy either, but I'm not really sure a more open policy would work. This one does, at least for the people I know who are having to deal with it (on both sides, it seems to work okay for Gato too). If I had a better answer, I would certainly put it forth, but I don't.

I didn't say all...just some.

 

[tonksy]

what a load of i have never known as many homosexuals at one time then i did in the military who really gives a shit? my best friend is a lesbian...she was one of the finest sailors i ever served with.
you (usually) don't have sex at work so what does it matter whom you have sex with anyway? people have some silly issues....

 

[Gato_Solo]

what a load of i have never known as many homosexuals at one time then i did in the military who really gives a shit?

Well...you were in the Navy...

my best friend is a lesbian...she was one of the finest sailors i ever served with.
you (usually) don't have sex at work so what does it matter whom you have sex with anyway? people have some silly issues....

It isn't me...I couldn't care less what your sexual bent is as long as there's no harassment going on...but regulations are regulations, and, being an E-6 now, I'm at a point where I can no longer look past what the DoD claims is 'errant behavior'. I'll hold onto "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" for as long as it goes, though. I'm not into destroying someones life unless I have absolutely no other way out.

 

[tonksy]

Well...you were in the Navy...

yeah...i suppose you're right...

It isn't me...I couldn't care less what your sexual bent is as long as there's no harassment going on...but regulations are regulations, and, being an E-6 now, I'm at a point where I can no longer look past what the DoD claims is 'errant behavior'. I'll hold onto "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" for as long as it goes, though. I'm not into destroying someones life unless I have absolutely no other way out.

aw...i knew it wasn't you....but seriously...how often is it really an issue?

 

[Gato_Solo]

yeah...i suppose you're right...


aw...i knew it wasn't you....but seriously...how often is it really an issue?

It usually comes up when the person is in trouble for other things, and is lumped in under the charge "Prejudicial to the good order and discipline" cover-all. Once that charge comes up, it's either court-martial or administrative discharge anyway...

 

[tonksy]

It usually comes up when the person is in trouble for other things, and is lumped in under the charge "Prejudicial to the good order and discipline" cover-all. Once that charge comes up, it's either court-martial or administrative discharge anyway...

yeah...that sounds familiar..."if we can't get you for what we're mad at you for then we'll just use something else"....still a darn shame.

 

[Gato_Solo]

yeah...that sounds familiar..."if we can't get you for what we're mad at you for then we'll just use something else"....still a darn shame.

Sometimes, yes, and sometimes no. If the person is really causing problems, and you can't get rid of them any other way...In the civilian world, you get fired if they don't like what you do...Same thing.

 

[tonksy]

Sometimes, yes, and sometimes no. If the person is really causing problems, and you can't get rid of them any other way...In the civilian world, you get fired if they don't like what you do...Same thing.

but what happens when it's abused? you have a perfectly fine sailor/soldier/bullet sponge but someone has it out for homosexuals? i understand that the rule can help you weed out the trash...but seriously, if you want to find something wrong with someone the UCMJ is pretty much vague enough to find something without involving a persons sexuality.

 

[Gato_Solo]

but what happens when it's abused? you have a perfectly fine sailor/soldier/bullet sponge but someone has it out for homosexuals? i understand that the rule can help you weed out the trash...but seriously, if you want to find something wrong with someone the UCMJ is pretty much vague enough to find something without involving a persons sexuality.

True, it can be abused, but so can anything else...