Okay, if he's not a Leftist, why is he siding with Leftists?

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Barack Obama is siding with the ousted president of Honduras who wanted to defy constitutional law and make himself president for life. The military came in, arrested him, took him to the airport, and bade him a fond farewell. After that, they returned control of the country back to the Congress and went on their way.

Obama has sided with the ousted president and is demanding that he be returned to power to "bring back democracy" to the country. Remember, this is the same guy who tried to do away with democracy; but he is going to "restore" it?

Hugo Chavez is threatening to invade the country but Obama is mum about that. He is, after all, a fellow Leftist.

So here is the analysis from the Wall Street Journal July 20, 2009.

SOURCE

JULY 20, 2009

The U.S. Steers Left on Honduras
Why would Hugo Chavez expect Obama to help him?

When Hugo Chávez makes a personal appeal to Washington for help, as he did 11 days ago, it raises serious questions about the signals that President Barack Obama is sending to the hemisphere's most dangerous dictator.

At issue is Mr. Chávez's determination to restore deposed Honduran president Manuel Zelaya to power through multilateral pressure. His phone call to a State Department official showed that his campaign was not going well and that he thought he could get U.S. help.

This is not good news for the region. The Venezuelan may feel that his aims have enough support from the U.S. and the Organization of American States (OAS) that he would be justified in forcing Mr. Zelaya on Honduras by supporting a violent overthrow of the current government. That he has reason to harbor such a view is yet another sign that the Obama administration is on the wrong side of history.

In the three weeks since the Honduran Congress moved to defend the country's constitution by relieving Mr. Zelaya of his presidential duties, it has become clear that his arrest was both lawful and a necessary precaution against violence.

Mr. Zelaya was trying to use mob rule to undermine Honduras's institutions in much the same way that Mr. Chávez has done in Venezuela. But as Washington lawyer Miguel Estrada pointed out in the Los Angeles Times on July 10, Mr. Zelaya's actions were expressly forbidden by the Honduran constitution.

"Article 239," Mr. Estrada noted, "specifically states that any president who so much as proposes the permissibility of reelection 'shall cease forthwith' in his duties, and Article 4 provides that any 'infraction' of the succession rules constitutes treason." Congress had little choice but to take its next step. It convened "immediately after Zelaya's arrest," Mr. Estrada wrote, "condemning his illegal conduct, and overwhelmingly voting (122-6) to remove him from office."

Mr. Zelaya was shipped out of the country because Honduras believed that jailing him would make him a lightning rod for violence. Interim President Roberto Micheletti promised that presidential elections scheduled for November would go forward.

That might have been the end of it if the U.S. had supported the Honduran rule of law, or simply refrained from meddling. Instead President Obama and the State Department joined Mr. Chávez and his allies in demanding that Mr. Zelaya be restored to power. This has emboldened Venezuela.

On July 5, Mr. Zelaya boarded a plane manned by a Venezuelan crew bound for Tegucigalpa, knowing full well that he would not be allowed to land. It didn't matter. His intention was to incite a mob on the ground and force a confrontation between his supporters and the military. It worked. One person was killed in clashes near the airport.

Yet the tragedy did not produce the desired condemnation of the Micheletti government. Rather, it empowered Honduran patriots. Perhaps this is because the airport violence reinforced the claim that Mr. Zelaya is a threat to the peace.

He was not the only one to lose credibility that day. OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza had encouraged the fly-over stunt despite its obvious risks. He even traveled in a separate plane behind Mr. Zelaya to show support. The incident destroyed any possibility that Mr. Insulza could be considered an honest broker. It also proved the charge that by insisting on Mr. Zelaya's return the U.S. was playing with fire.

The next day Costa Rican President Oscar Arias offered to act as a mediator between Mr. Zelaya and the new government. Mr. Arias would seem to be far from an impartial referee given that he is a supporter of Mr. Zelaya. Yet it is also true that Central America has the most to lose if Honduras descends into civil war. It follows that the San José venue offers better odds for the Honduran democracy than, say, the auspices of the OAS.

Other influential Central Americans have expressed support for Honduras. Last week the Honduran daily El Heraldo reported that Salvador's OAS ambassador said he hopes to see the resolution that suspended Honduras from the group revoked under the new permanent-council president. Catholic Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga has condemned Mr. Zelaya's violent tactics and says that Honduras does not want to emulate Venezuela.

Mr. Chávez understands that Mr. Zelaya's star is fading, which is why he called Tom Shannon, the State Department's assistant secretary for the Western Hemisphere at home at 11:15 p.m on July 9. Mr. Shannon told me that Mr. Chávez "again made the case for the unconditional return of Mr. Zelaya, though he did so in a less bombastic manner than he has in the past."

Mr. Shannon says that in response he "suggested to him that Venezuela and its [allies] address the fear factor by calling for free and fair elections and a peaceful transition to a new government." That, Mr. Shannon, says, "hasn't happened."

Nor is it likely to. Yet the U.S. continues exerting enormous pressure for the return of Mr. Zelaya. If it prevails, it is unlikely that Mr. Zelaya's mobs or Mr. Chávez will suddenly be tamed.

Write to O'[email protected]
 
Calling Obama a leftist is like calling hurricane Katrina a cool breeze. You have to understand that he has a lot of empathy for Zalaya. These pesky constitutions get in the way of true total consciousness and harmony. The Dear Leader my have to do the same here someday.
 
A couple issues with your premise Jim.

There is near unanimous support for Zelaya's return in the international community.

While support for Zelaya's return to power is unanimous in the international community

http://www.finchannel.com/Main_News/World/Zelaia_seeking_an_international_support_to_get_home/

There was even a UN resolution passed unanimously.

There are at least 3 gigantic logic flaws in your premise.

1. You tried to mislead us into thinking that only leftists have supported him. When this is obviously not true. Unless you consider practically the entire international community and all the nations in the UN "leftist".

2. Agreeing with someone on one issue does not make you aligned with them on all issues.

3. Who ever said that Obama isn't on the left? That's why we voted for him.
 
A couple issues with your premise Jim.

There is near unanimous support for Zelaya's return in the international community.

http://www.finchannel.com/Main_News/World/Zelaia_seeking_an_international_support_to_get_home/

You left out a bit of information on that:

While support for Zelaya's return to power is unanimous in the international community, some countries have warned that the timing is not right and have suggested that it would be more prudent to reach a compromise first, adds Los Angeles Times.

Accordingly Associated Press Zelaya is opposed by all branches of the Honduran government as well as the military. He even alienated leaders of his own party, which supported a congressional vote to install congressional leader Roberto Micheletti as interim president.

"Micheletti won't be in government for very long — only the time needed to improve things in Honduras," said Jorge Illescas, who directs the ruling Liberal Party that both Zelaya and Micheletti represent. "He will leave next January," Illescas added, when the next president takes power following November's election.

Sounds like the law in Honduras is working just fine without outside interference.

There was even a UN resolution passed unanimously.

There are at least 3 gigantic logic flaws in your premise.

1. You tried to mislead us into thinking that only leftists have supported him. When this is obviously not true. Unless you consider practically the entire international community and all the nations in the UN "leftist".

I didn't say that ONLY Leftists support him. I said that out Leftist in Chief supports him.

2. Agreeing with someone on one issue does not make you aligned with them on all issues.

I never stated anything about "all issues" only the one about Zelaya's return to power.

3. Who ever said that Obama isn't on the left? That's why we voted for him.

What a refreshing revelation of truth. Thank you for that.
 
You left out a bit of information on that

Yeah, I included the pertinent part. Obama is not only siding with leftists, he's siding with pretty much the entire international community. As opposed to the way you tried to misleadingly portray it.

I didn't say that ONLY Leftists support him. I said that out Leftist in Chief supports him.

No, you said "Why is he siding with leftists" in which you tried to mislead us into thing only leftists support Zelaya.

I never stated anything about "all issues" only the one about Zelaya's return to power.

Right, however when you say "if he's not a leftist, why is he siding with leftists". You're logical problem being here that if you side with a leftist or rightist on one particular issue it does not necessarily make you a leftist to rightist.

What a refreshing revelation of truth. Thank you for that.

Like I said Jim, who is saying he doesn't lean left? Why does this surprise you?

I was aware that Bush leaned right pretty much from the start.

It is very rare to make 3 logical mistakes in a single sentence but you managed to pull it off.
 
Obama says we shouldn't interfere with other country's affairs; but would you say that this would qualify as interference?

SOURCE

US warns Honduras' de facto leader on economic aid
20 Jul 2009 21:41:07 GMT
Source: Reuters

* U.S. urges Honduras interim govt to pursue crisis talks

* State Dept warns Micheletti of "potential consequences"

* Analysts say more pressure needed to aid settlement

By Tim Gaynor

WASHINGTON, July 20 (Reuters) - The United States has warned Honduras' de facto government it could face cuts in economic aid if it fails to reach a deal with ousted President Manuel Zelaya on restoring democratic rule.

The government that took power when Zelaya was toppled in a June 28 coup has flatly refused to allow his return to power, and negotiations mediated by Costa Rican President Oscar Arias collapsed on Sunday.

Washington hopes Arias can broker a deal that includes Zelaya's return and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton spoke with the de facto government's leader Roberto Micheletti after talks fell apart, urging him to continue with negotiations.

"She made clear, if the de facto regime needed to be reminded, that we seek a restoration of democratic and constitutional order, a peaceful resolution," spokesman P.J. Crowley told reporters on Monday.

"She reminded him about the consequences for Honduras if they fail to accept the principles that President Arias has laid out, which would (have) a significant impact in terms of aid and consequences, potentially longer-term consequences ... for the relationship between Honduras and the United States."

President Barack Obama is seeking to mend U.S.-Latin American ties that were often strained under predecessor George W. Bush.

So far his administration has condemned the coup in Honduras and cut $16. 5 million in military aid, but has largely taken a hands-off approach to the crisis, leaving Arias and the Organization of American States to take the lead. (Of course cutting off military aid when Chavez is massing troops for a full scale invasion is a big help to his buddy Chavez. That should make the invasion go much smoother. -- j)

Crowley hinted the United States might now take further steps to pressure Micheletti, although it was not clear what was being considered or when any sanctions might be applied.

The options include slashing $180 million in economic aid.

The European Commission on Monday suspended all budgetary support payments to Honduras to increase the pressure on Micheletti, although he again insisted he would not give in.

TIME TO INCREASE PRESSURE?

Some analysts say the Obama administration needs to step up sanctions now to pressure the interim government to accept Arias' seven-point plan, allowing Zelaya to return to Honduras to set up a coalition government that includes rival parties.

"If the United States is to send a message that coups in this day and age in Latin America are not acceptable ... the message needs to be reinforced," said Vicki Gass, with the Washington Office on Latin America think tank.

Zelaya's supporters are lobbying for the suspension of a trade agreement between the United States and Honduras, curbs on remittances sent home by Honduran workers in the United States, and canceling travel visas for members of the de facto government and their families.

"The goal is to get Micheletti to agree to the seven-point plan, the threat must be stated very explicitly, now," said Julia Sweig a senior Latin America analyst at the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington.

"The last thing that Micheletti and his forces could endure is global economic sanctions and being treated like a pariah. That's the road he's going down," she said. (Additional reporting by Paul Eckert in Washington; Editing by Kieran Murray)

While they keep calling this a "coup" it was merely the enactment of the provisions of the constitution of the country. Remember this part from the thread header?

"Article 239, ... specifically states that any president who so much as proposes the permissibility of reelection 'shall cease forthwith' in his duties, and Article 4 provides that any 'infraction' of the succession rules constitutes treason."

It was after he was arrested for this violation that the following occurred:

[Congress] convened "immediately after Zelaya's arrest," Mr. Estrada wrote, "condemning his illegal conduct, and overwhelmingly voting (122-6) to remove him from office."

So he violated the constitution which declares his actions treason. He was removed from power by a lawful vote of the Honduran congress.

So by all indications, the country is acting in a democratic constitutional manner and following their constitution. How is that a bad thing; and who are we to interfere?
 
Enter the lying Commie Chavez ...

SOURCE

Chávez says Zelaya heading for Honduras

By Benedict Mander in Caracas

Published: July 17 2009 17:37 | Last updated: July 17 2009 23:48

Manuel Zelaya, the president of Honduras deposed by a military coup three weeks ago, made a second attempt to return home on Friday, according to Hugo Chávez, Venezuela’s leader.

“Zelaya said that in the coming hours he’ll enter Honduras. We’re behind him, we have to support him,” Mr Chávez said in Bolivia on Friday. There has been no confirmation from Mr Zelaya, who is in Nicaragua. In recent days Venezuela’s president, who had already assumed a leading role in condemning the coup, has ramped up his rhetoric against the de facto government in Honduras, accusing it of being backed by the US government.

“The Honduran army wouldn’t have gone forward without the approval of the state department. I don’t think they told [US president Barack] Obama, but there’s an empire behind Obama,” Mr Chávez said on Thursday. Like Venezuela and every other country in the region, the US government has openly criticised Mr Zelaya’s overthrow.

The de facto government in Honduras has responded to Mr Chávez’s “threats, provocations and violation of [its] sovereignty” by formally complaining to the United Nations Security Council. But according to the Honduran ambassador to the UN, who remains loyal to Mr Zelaya, the complaint will be ignored as it does not formally recognise the new administration.


Once the leader of an unsuccessful military coup in 1992 and himself briefly overthrown in 2002, Mr Chávez threatened military intervention shortly after the coup took place, and also provided an aircraft for Mr Zelaya’s botched attempt to return to Honduras two weeks ago.

Telesur, the Venezuela-based regional news channel, has played a key role in reporting events in Honduras from a largely pro-Zelaya perspective, and Roberto Micheletti, the de facto president of Honduras, even accuses Mr Chávez of sending agitators to stir up unrest. A crew of Telesur reporters fled Honduras after being briefly detained by armed guards who advised them to leave.

Mr Chávez, who has embraced Mr Zelaya as the newest member of his leftwing regional alliance Alab, which includes Cuba, Bolivia and Nicaragua, makes no secret of his contempt for Mr Micheletti. “Al Capone is just a child compared to ‘Gorileti’ and his bandits,” he said, flippantly using his preferred nickname for Mr Micheletti, in reference to the Spanish slang for a military “coupster” or dictator.

Mr Chávez argues that if Mr Zelaya is not returned to power, a dangerous precedent will be set – most of all in countries with leftwing governments. “Next they’ll come for Evo [Morales, Bolivia’s president], then they’ll come for [Rafael] Correa [of Ecuador], then [Fernando] Lugo [of Paraguay], then Chávez.”

“The cruel and beastly hand of the yankee empire, trying not only to overturn democracy in Honduras, will next come for all of us who are trying, together with the people, to implement processes of democratic change,” he added.

Despite the US government’s condemnation of the coup, Mr Chávez’s accusations have been backed by Mr Morales and Fidel Castro of Cuba, who published a column saying: “The idea that the US ambassador in Tegucigalpa, Hugo Llorens, did not know about the coup is absolutely false.”

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2009

That fuckup loves to badmouth the United States.
 
Yeah, I included the pertinent part. Obama is not only siding with leftists, he's siding with pretty much the entire international community. As opposed to the way you tried to misleadingly portray it.

You are still living in that fantasy world where nothing you ever read is what the author intended. Dream on, sweet prince.

No, you said "Why is he siding with leftists" in which you tried to mislead us into thing only leftists support Zelaya.

He is siding with Leftists, unless you consider Cuba's Castro, Venezuela's Chavez, Bolivia’s Morales, Ecuador's Correa, and Paraguay's Lugo to be right wingers.

Right, however when you say "if he's not a leftist, why is he siding with leftists". You're logical problem being here that if you side with a leftist or rightist on one particular issue it does not necessarily make you a leftist to rightist.

???WTF???

Like I said Jim, who is saying he doesn't lean left? Why does this surprise you?

What surprises me is your finally admitting it.

I was aware that Bush leaned right pretty much from the start.

But I never denied that.

It is very rare to make 3 logical mistakes in a single sentence but you managed to pull it off.

None of which you have proven.
 
Continuing the interference in another country's affairs ...

SOURCE

WRAPUP 2-Honduras pressure mounts, U.S. wants deal "now"
Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:04pm EDT

* U.S. wants a deal "now"

* Zelaya says de facto government will have to back down

* Mediator pushing for new round of talks on Wednesday

By Simon Gardner

TEGUCIGALPA, July 21 (Reuters) - The United States and Europe stepped up pressure on Honduras' de facto government on Tuesday as deposed President Manuel Zelaya and his supporters called on Washington to pave the way for his return.

With negotiations deadlocked and Zelaya vowing to return to Honduras within days, some fear Central America's worst crisis since the end of the Cold War could flare into violence.

Talks mediated by Costa Rican President Oscar Arias collapsed over the weekend but he hopes to bring both sides back to the negotiating table on Wednesday..

The U.S. government threw its weight behind Arias' proposal that Zelaya, who was toppled in a June 28 coup, be reinstated to set up a coalition government.

"We're in constant contact with a number of countries in the hemisphere regarding the situation in Honduras, and we believe the Arias mediation is the right way to go, and the time is now to ... resolve this issue," State Department deputy spokesman Robert A. Wood told reporters.

"We think that this is the best (way) ... to restore the constitutional order in the country, and we want to see that happen now," he said.

(That has already occurred as the constitution was followed precisely. Just because we don't like their constitution doesn't mean we have the right to make them change it or insist they fail to adhere to it. -- j)

The government that took power when Zelaya was toppled has not been recognized by any other country, but it refuses to allow his return to power and vows to arrest him on arrival.

The crisis is testing President Barack Obama as he seeks to improve U.S. relations with Latin America, where a growing bloc of leftist leaders that includes Zelaya has challenged Washington's influence in recent years.

Obama has already cut $16.5 million in military aid to Honduras but has let Arias and the Organization of American States take the lead on diplomatic efforts to end the crisis.

He faces pressure from Latin American heavyweight Brazil and other countries in the region who want more pressure on Honduras' de facto government but at home some Republicans in Congress feel Obama is showing too much support to Zelaya.

Speaking from exile in Nicaragua, Zelaya said he would soon be back in Honduras.

"It is impossible to sustain a regime with bayonets. The world will not allow it, starting with the United States," he said in an interview with Honduras' Radio Globo.

Zelaya was expelled from the textile and coffee exporting country in his pajamas in the middle of the night, accused of violating the constitution by trying to extend presidential term limits. The army threw him out of the country after the Supreme Court ordered his arrest.

His rivals say he was also seeking to turn the traditionally conservative country into a satellite of Venezuela's firebrand leftist President Hugo Chavez.

Zelaya has repeatedly said his supporters have the right to insurrection (But ONLY his supporters. -- j) but he said on Tuesday he was against any military intervention and would return "peacefully".

He made a failed bid to return to Honduras earlier this month. Soldiers blocked the runway and at least one protester was killed in clashes with the army.

Brazilian Foreign Minister Celso Amorim called U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton last week to complain that talks were dragging on too long and that Zelaya should be reinstated without conditions, a Brazilian diplomat said.

"The negotiations must not reward a coup, which could in turn encourage other coups," the diplomat said on condition of anonymity.

Zelaya's supporters hope Washington will ultimately force interim leader Roberto Micheletti to back down.

"We think we are close to a deal, because there is international pressure for the coup-mongers to talk," said Juan Vazquez, 35, an indigenous leader who joined around 500 Zelaya supporters in a march in the capital Tegucigalpa on Tuesday.

"Zelaya will get all the support he needs from the people to get him back into the presidency," said Jose Israel Estrada, 60, as he listened to Zelaya speak from Nicaragua over a dusty radio at the gate to the home of the ousted leader's mother, in his native central province of Olancho.

The Swedish European Union presidency said the bloc would continue to restrict political contacts with Micheletti's government and "consider further targeted measures".

The interim government remains defiant, saying it would not row back on its decision to bar Zelaya's reinstatement.

It also gave the staff at Venezuela's embassy 72 hours to quit the country. They said they would refuse to leave. (Additional reporting by Gustavo Palencia in Tegucigalpa, Sean Mattson in Lepaguare, Tim Gaynor in Washington, Juana Casas and John McPhaul in San Jose; Editing by Kieran Murray)
 
You are still living in that fantasy world where nothing you ever read is what the author intended.

Where is the fantasy Jim? You clearly intended to mislead us into thinking only leftists supported this position as illustrated below.

He is siding with Leftists, unless you consider Cuba's Castro, Venezuela's Chavez, Bolivia’s Morales, Ecuador's Correa, and Paraguay's Lugo to be right wingers.

Jim, let's clear this up. Pretty much the entire international community is siding the same on this one. So he is siding with the international community.

If people on the right and people on the left agree that 2+2=4 and you agreed with them I could say "he's siding with the leftists" and while true, it would be intentionally misleading.

You following?

???WTF???

Let me explain. You say "2+2=4" and I start yelling "If Jim isn't a leftist why is he siding with the leftists on this?"

Just because you and the leftists agree on something doesn't make you a leftist.

Following?

What surprises me is your finally admitting it.

When the fuck did I not admit it?

But I never denied that.

Oh, you mean like I never denied Obama leaned to the left or Bush leaned to the right.

None of which you have proven.

Proven all 3

1. We haven't been saying Obama doesn't lean to the left
2. "Siding with the leftists" is not accurate as he's siding with the whole international community.
3. Siding with a group on a particular issue does not necessarily make you one of the group
 
holy shit folks! extended argument about NOTHING in the first place.

spike, this thread is tripe, just let jimmy go on with his blather and fully descend into the swirling vortex of imaginary political intrigue.
 
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