loose change

This makes all for an interesting read, and some people have some really entertaining theories, but they leave more questions then answers. I have a question about all of these conspiracy theories: why is it always just a bunch of film makers who arrive at different conclusions? All the detailed reports conducted by scientists using mathematics and physics don’t support the conspiracy theories. The producers find some one who has some credentials (but has done little to no actually research on the matter) and state his thoughts at the time as a fact. They throw out melting points, component strengths, design parameters, etc. But they never do one single calculation based on any of it.

Oh, I guess they do use one equation: Galileo’s law of falling bodies. Even here they have no idea what they are talking about. First of all, this law states that the length that an object falls under the force of gravity is proportional to the time squared. The exact value depends on the physical configuration of the item falling (since we don't live in a vacuum). Most basic free fall experiments are done using spheres. Each piece of the world trade center was unique and had its own drag coefficient/terminal velocity, so to assign a terminal velocity to all the debris is rather stupid. It’s even more stupid to use this equation to assign a terminal or free-fall velocity. The producer of the film is assuming that each piece of debris is a sphere with a fixed diameter and density. The real way of determining an object’s terminal velocity is:

V=((2*m*g)/(ρ*A*C))^.5

Where:
m is the mass of the object falling
g is the acceleration due to gravity
ρ is the density of the material falling through (air)
A is the cross sectional area of the object falling
C is the objects drag coefficient

Anyone want to tell me what the mass of the debris, the density of the material falling and the drag coefficient of the debris was? Now, how long will it take to reach 50% of that terminal velocity? How about 95%? Will it reach 95% of that before it hits the ground. When does the piece of debris in question actually hit the ground? (considering that you can’t see the ground). What will the initial velocity of the projectile have to be in order to make the object fall in just over 10 seconds? Will an initial velocity greater than the terminal velocity result in a fall time that is more than 1 second longer than the fall time at an initial velocity of 0? If so, how high does that intial velocity have to be?
 
I've seen two or three of them...includinbg the one on Discovery channel.

Yes, it makes one paranoid, upon initial inspection. Upon further review, it is outlandish rubbish, making a horrible thing worse for introducing another spectre to all the ghosts.
 
So you didn't watch this one? I was going to ask exactly what you thought was outlandish rubbish but I still can't tell if you watched it.
 
Yes, I saw it, back in April when this post was first put up. See #3 for my thoughts.
 
Just finished watching it... have the same feel as a few more conspiracy 9/11 vids and articles, and asking the same kind of questions...none of which have been answered. :shrug:

Pop quiz: What's the difference between a conspiracy theory and a valid theory?

Spin.
 
:rolleyes:

The central premise of Loose Change is that the United States Government was, at the very least, criminally negligent in allowing the attacks of September 11th, 2001 to occur.

However, when one looks deeper into the evidence, one might come to the startling conclusion that our own government might have been directly responsible for the attacks themselves.

Loose Change merely scratches the surface of information that points to a massive government cover-up regarding 9/11. We highly encourage you to take it upon yourself to research the events of 9/11 for yourself and come to your own conclusions.http://loosechange911.com/?gclid=CJzNxZac44kCFQ6kWAodpicLJw

Popular Mech. debunks the Loose Screw myths: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1 :

"I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100ºF," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800º it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.


It's just plain Hogwash:

The September 11th attacks were orchestrated by the CIA and was an inside job to create a pretext for war. Elements within the U.S. government not only knew they were coming, they helped plan the attacks, aid the terrorists, and made sure the attacks were carried out.http://theresistancemanifesto.com/

And Danny B. lets the author of this crap know it: ;)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bnliRXAIyIo
 
9/11 was not an excuse for the Iraq war. From the moment Bush was "elected" it was a foregone conclusion.
 
C'mon--get happy

I thought Bonaduce showed incredible restraint in dealing with the liberal wacko.
 
This makes all for an interesting read, and some people have some really entertaining theories, but they leave more questions then answers. I have a question about all of these conspiracy theories: why is it always just a bunch of film makers who arrive at different conclusions? All the detailed reports conducted by scientists using mathematics and physics don’t support the conspiracy theories. The producers find some one who has some credentials (but has done little to no actually research on the matter) and state his thoughts at the time as a fact. They throw out melting points, component strengths, design parameters, etc. But they never do one single calculation based on any of it.

Oh, I guess they do use one equation: Galileo’s law of falling bodies. Even here they have no idea what they are talking about. First of all, this law states that the length that an object falls under the force of gravity is proportional to the time squared. The exact value depends on the physical configuration of the item falling (since we don't live in a vacuum). Most basic free fall experiments are done using spheres. Each piece of the world trade center was unique and had its own drag coefficient/terminal velocity, so to assign a terminal velocity to all the debris is rather stupid. It’s even more stupid to use this equation to assign a terminal or free-fall velocity. The producer of the film is assuming that each piece of debris is a sphere with a fixed diameter and density. The real way of determining an object’s terminal velocity is:

V=((2*m*g)/(?*A*C))^.5

Where:
m is the mass of the object falling
g is the acceleration due to gravity
? is the density of the material falling through (air)
A is the cross sectional area of the object falling
C is the objects drag coefficient

Anyone want to tell me what the mass of the debris, the density of the material falling and the drag coefficient of the debris was? Now, how long will it take to reach 50% of that terminal velocity? How about 95%? Will it reach 95% of that before it hits the ground. When does the piece of debris in question actually hit the ground? (considering that you can’t see the ground). What will the initial velocity of the projectile have to be in order to make the object fall in just over 10 seconds? Will an initial velocity greater than the terminal velocity result in a fall time that is more than 1 second longer than the fall time at an initial velocity of 0? If so, how high does that intial velocity have to be?

I could've sworn that part of the point that he was making was that it shouldn't have fallen at all and it fell too fast...not too slowly, considering the math in question.
 
C'mon--get happy

I thought Bonaduce showed incredible restraint in dealing with the liberal wacko.

I don't understand what the point of talking with Danny B was at all... were they walking around and saw him there and said "Hey...let's interview someone, we've got 5 minutes to fill" ?

The piece is filled with quotes, newspaper articles, scientific reviews, photos, video of the event, first-hand statements by those on the scene at the time etc...

None of which is being disputed..why is that?
 
I don't understand what the point of talking with Danny B was at all... were they walking around and saw him there and said "Hey...let's interview someone, we've got 5 minutes to fill" ?

The piece is filled with quotes, newspaper articles, scientific reviews, photos, video of the event, first-hand statements by those on the scene at the time etc...

None of which is being disputed..why is that?


Maybe because self-absorbed America hater John Conner is a paranoid- schitzo?

Or maybe it's because like Danny said: "you can walk up and down the street with a microphone and criticize the President because you live in a free country."

Actually, the hyperbole is disputed here: http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...42.html?page=1

Even more striking, do you actually agree with the "quotes, newspaper articles, scientific reviews, photos, video of the event, first-hand statements by those on the scene at the time etc...?"
 
spike said:
You must not have watched the Loose Change video since your Popular Mechanics article only addresses a couple points that were made in the video, and not very well.

Your article is not a response to the video it's using claims from various websites. Most of the points from the video are not addressed at all.

lets see...

The jets that struck New York and Washington, D.C., weren't commercial planes, they say, but something else, perhaps refueling tankers or guided missiles. And the lack of military intervention? Theorists claim it proves the U.S. government instigated the assault or allowed it to occur in order to advance oil interests or a war agenda.

that was in the video

On Sept. 11, FOX News broadcast a live phone interview with FOX employee Marc Birnbach. 911inplanesite.com states that "Bernback" saw the plane "crash into the South Tower." "It definitely did not look like a commercial plane," Birnbach said on air. "I didn't see any windows on the sides."

that was too

Plus, the lobbies of both buildings were visibly damaged before the towers collapsed. "There is NO WAY the impact of the jet caused such widespread damage 80 stories below

as was that

"The first lie was that the load of fuel from the aircraft was the cause of structural failure. No kerosene fire can burn hot enough to melt steel."

i seem to remember that too

The concrete clouds shooting out of the buildings are not possible from a mere collapse. They do occur from explosions."

lots of close up shots of that

"The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition: amongst the Internet investigators, the jury is in on this one."

mentioned that too

all these were from the first 5 pages. you sure you watched the right video spike?
 
There's a little overlap but the claims that Popular Science addresses use different evidence than the movie and many of the items Popular Science addresses are not proven very well.

For instance Popular Science proof that a plane crashed at the Pentagon is a single quote from one person. While the video uses multiple eyewitness reports.

Not very convincing and the Popular Science article doesn't even touch the great bulk of items brought up in the video.
 
With a little more inspection you can see at the end of the Loose Change video that they actually show the cover of the Popular Mechanics magazine with the article and throughout the video they are confronting the issues Popular Mechanics has brought up.

So obviously the Loose Change video that we are watching came after the Popular Mechanics article.

So are you sure you watched the right video Dave?
 
Yes, I saw it, back in April when this post was first put up. See #3 for my thoughts.

Spoiler? Yeah, that was incredibly thoughtful and really showed your insight on the matter.

Since you did watch it what exactly did you think was outlandish rubbish?
 
Back
Top