a cure for the maternal instinct?

[IDLEchild]

You'll realize how empty & meaningless life was without them.

Maybe so but this realization may only occur from the fact that the general youthful indiscretions have been cleared out of the way.

It seems meaningless because you've done it and been through it all...or most of it. If someone decides to jump into marriage without being the wildchild they wanted to be then marriage for them feels like a constraint, a bondage into something far less comfortable which seeps deeper into their skin as days go by.

Not everyone feels the need to commit, for some the ritualistic measures don't serve as any need of closure, they only act as an hinderence. In BoP's case; her decision to be in a relationship she is, is her form of sanctity, and sanity. What is she gets married and has kids and all that jazz and realizes that what she had before wasn't meaningless? It was more than what she has now.

To you it is meaningless now because for you the consistency and security of love appeals to you more than the spontaniety and passion of it (not to say you aren't passionate about your family)...but this is not for us all.

I am pretty sure BoP already realizes the intensity of a long lasting love without being totally immersed in the whole aspect of marriage and without having kids she never really wanted.

So in conclusion: You and her both realize the importance of a consistent relationship and long lasting one...yet you wanted the extra responsibility of a child and she didn't.....does that make her youthful life any less meaningless?

I understand where you are coming from and I must agree...a lot of times I was a nay sayer of a lot of things I partake in and (or) support now, so the whole notion"Don't knock untill you've tried it" is very true but for me Tonsky said it best

having kids is a purely personal thing. i can say that while i may assume a couple would want kids i sure don't hold it against them in the slightest.

(not to say you're holding it against her)

And that is exactly the patronising crap I don't need

I don't think he was being patronising at all. He speaks from a cthartic point of view...I bet when the newborn kid that you helped produce grabs your finger for the first time with his tiny fist it is an awe inspiring experience. He speaks from that POV and I'll agree with him here...I can already imagine that it would all be meaningless drivel compared to that child...

...but then again...I want to have kids, someday.

 

[ClaireBear]

Kids?

Sometimes I do... sometimes I don't...

I do because...

I know I'll be a good mother... I don't wanna blow my own trumpet but when I'm around my friends kids they all say "Wow! You're really great with Jade/Casey etc etc" I'm also a teacher so I know all about all the psychology and development of children.

There's something to be said for loving someone enough to want to keep the traits you find so irresistible in them going by having their children.

And Hell! My life couldn't get anymore repetative, tiring, restrictive and impoverished than it is now!

I don't because...

This sounds silly but... I have a little bit of a fear of childbirth... that I'll die or summit... it really is unwarrented but is that not the nature of fear... to be irrational!

I don't think I can actually have children... and to try and conceive and fail... well I don't think I could cope with that...

Even though at the moment ANYTHING would be an improvement on the life I lead... if I eventually do get my teaching post and my flat and my car, a social life, dinner parties, expensive clothes... I don't know if I'd want to give all that, and my cream carpet, up for a rugrat!

 

[Gonz]

It seems meaningless because you've done it and been through it all...or most of it.

It is meaningless. I knew it when I was 19. I wouldn't change a thing if I could do it all over again because that would mean I'd be somebody else. If you notice, I did point out to do all the wreckless things while you're young & flexible. I'm not suggestying everybody go out & get married & have kids tomorrow. I passed 30 before my son came along.

The difference between a person at 18 & and that same person at 29 is almost as dramatic as the difference between a toddler & a teen.

Have a life first.

 

[abooja]

I don't ever plan on having kids. If I determine my life to have been meaningless when I'm on my deathbed (as I do now), I guarantee you that it will have nothing whatsoever to do with this fact.

 

[Gonz]

It's not for everybody.

I just don't want ot look back & have my last thougth be - "I wish I'd have spent more time at the office. I hope the Dorfman account can go on without me."

 

[Spirit]

There are enough neglected and unwanted children in the world, why argue against someone who knows they don't want children and takes steps not to have them? I think it's commendable.

I love children, have children.

 

[Professur]

Errr. As the father of 3, and uncle of more, I'd just like to say that my kids are the centre of my life. Simply because I put them there. When your kid looks at you for the first time, it can be a special moment. If you want it to be. But if you're not willing .... no, rephrase. If you're not wanting to make them more important to you than you are to yourself, then you're not going to enjoy being a parent, and should probably take permanent steps to prevent it ever happening.

That's not to say that you shouldn't take time for yourself too. You must, or you'll go nuts. But the care, mental as well as physical, of those children is, must be, your highest priority. Many's the time I've been late for work because, as I was pulling outta the driveway, V2.0 came running outta the house in bare feet and nightgown, tears streaming down her face, because she needed a hug before I left. But at the same time, it's my job, to her, to hug her, and then leave.

 

[Spirit]

..... Many's the time I've been late for work because, as I was pulling outta the driveway, V2.0 came running outta the house in bare feet and nightgown, tears streaming down her face, because she needed a hug before I left. But at the same time, it's my job, to her, to hug her, and then leave.

What a lucky little girl (and wife).

 

[BeardofPants]

I don't ever plan on having kids. If I determine my life to have been meaningless when I'm on my deathbed (as I do now), I guarantee you that it will have nothing whatsoever to do with this fact.

Yep, I suspect I'll be the same. I've felt like this for a long time, and you know, there's more to life than kids and work. I'm not planning on replacing any maternal instincts with work.... there's a whole world out there, and I fully plan on getting out there, and experiencing it.

There are enough neglected and unwanted children in the world, why argue against someone who knows they don't want children and takes steps not to have them? I think it's commendable.

Well said.

 

[Gonz]

There are enough neglected and unwanted children in the world, why argue against someone who knows they don't want children and takes steps not to have them? I think it's commendable.

I love children, have children.

The first two I just pointed out that time may (and will probably) change their thinking. To, in the meantime, enjoy things that will go & should go away leter. It, of course, wasn't taken right. Abooja, otoh, I just answered for myself.

Last night I had a similar (but longer) things written up similar to Profs & I scrapped it. The egocentric part was my theme. Prof said it easily & well enough.

If you're not wanting to make them more important to you than you are to yourself,

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Good stuff Proff, even if you can't spell 'center'.

I like to think that I've lived an adventurous-dangerous life, standingup to challenges that others often feared and whoopin'em. Nothing in all my days ever led me to believe that would willingly be bossed around by phenetically challenged two-year old toddler. God I love it too.

 

[Spirit]

The first two I just pointed out that time may (and will probably) change their thinking. To, in the meantime, enjoy things that will go & should go away leter.

I agree with that - it being a possibility. Time changes many things/thoughts/feelings...

 

[greenfreak]

I think we all actually agree, should I sum up?


Parents (the parents who have posted at least) feel that the minute their children were born, they no longer live for themselves, they now live for their children. To do that, to give of yourself completely, and to sacrifice and love more than you ever thought was possible is as unselfish and wonderful as you can get.

Non-parents who have decided not to have children are not bad people that live empty, meaningless lives. They are not selfish, there is nothing wrong with them, and they have a right to make that decision. It is possible for them to enjoy their younger siblings, their nieces and nephews, their friends kids without wanting their own. There is a big difference.

Parents should not judge the childless because they choose not to have children.

The childless should not judge the parents on their methods of child rearing.

No one should question a childless person on why they don't have children. Whatever the reason, it's not for anyone else to judge.

There are many parents out there who are terrible at it.

There are many childless people out there who would make wonderful parents.

In the end, it's all about personal choice.




How'd I do?

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Honestly, I judge the shit outta everyone I meet.

The assessments results may not meet the choices I would make, I have to evaluate that case-by-case. but I judge absou-friggin'-lutly everyone I meet.

So beware of me, I will judge you. Would you judge me for it?

 

[abooja]

Greenie, you stated it perfectly.

As for being considered a selfish sack of shit because I choose not to squirt out some babies, that is a revoltingly egotistical statement. If I were barren -- by disease or by birth -- would you still feel the same way? What if the man I loved could not have children? Should I dump him for one with viable sperm cells?

I'll tell you what. When you're ready to live my life from my experiences, my perspective and my own particular psychological and intellectual makeup, perhaps you'll have the ability to determine whether or not I have made the right decision.

Besides, it's not like I can just run out tomorrow and get knocked up. I'm not married, I don't have a boyfriend and I'm nowhere near ready for that sort of responsibility, either financially or emotionally. Given that I'm in my mid-30s, I'd have to spend every waking moment seeking out such a situation in order to have children with a loving, responsible man, instead of working to improve the situation that currently exists. It's not for me. Get over it.

P.S. I'd like to add that Prof, you do sound like a wonderful father and your children are very lucky to have you.

 

[Professur]

they no longer live for themselves,[/b] they now live for their children. To do that, to give of yourself completely, and to sacrifice and love more than you ever thought was possible is as unselfish and wonderful as you can get.

No, no, no. You still live for you. It's just what you live for changes. Priorities change. I've said the same thing about marriage. It's not about one individual anymore. You have to become part of a collective "we", called the family. Each individual has needs and wants, within that collective, that need to be addressed and balanced against the needs and wants of all the others. As the adults in the family, it's the parents who made the decision to create that collective, and as such are resposable to upkeep and maintain it. This will, and does entail some sacrafice or their behalf, until the children have grown old enough to shoulder their share of the burden of the collective family. That means that new moms don't get much sleep, or dads wind up walking the halls with a colicy baby. It means driving to soccer practice instead of watching the ER rerun marathon. It means holding a child's head while they puke up 5 pounds of candy on halloween.

It means being the bad guy sometimes. It means being the bottom of a 4 person couch cuddle, even though your arm's asleep and you need a piss.

Thought: It's building something that'll last. Like an old time carpenter, spending weeks choosing the right woods. Taking hours on one joint, so that it's perfect. In the end, it can be something so strong and solid, it'll last a thousand years, and be a thing of beauty to behold. And like that carpenter, it's knowing what you've built is right, and good, and will last that's the payoff. Not the paycheque.

Damn, it's like describing a beautiful sunset to a blind person (no insult). You don't give up anything. Every act for the child is an act for yourself too. The reward is love, in all it's many forms.

 

[abooja]

I never said that being a parent can't be a wonderful, fulfilling thing. I'm sure it's all those things and more and I give a lot of credit to those of you who are good at it. Yes, to do it well, one cannot be selfish.

But it is illogical to conclude that good parents are not selfish, therefore non-parents must be selfish. No. Bad parents are selfish. For the argument to be valid, the premise must logically imply the conclusion.

 

[Starya]

I have a kid. I'm still selfish.

Well, at least that's what he says, when I growl as he attempts to touch the computer.

 

[Professur]

Oh heven forbid. Unselfish? Nonsense. Parents are the single most selfish people you'll ever meet. It's what they're selfish about .... See the common thread?

It's like carpentry, religion, or anything else. There's a leap of faith, of ideal that must be made. And I'm the first to admit, it's hard in today's society. In olden days, family was what kept you alive. Today, it's not easy to keep any faith alive. Similarly, religion and good carpentry are also on the wane. It all comes back to that "want it all, want it now" mentality that's today's vogue.

Personally, I applaud and thank each and every person who thought it through and said "No, I'm not going to have children just because it's biologically time to". You people are stronger, and you've done more to help families than you'll ever realize. It's the ones who decide at 35, or 40, or even 50 these days that they've missed something and now they want it, that I despise. That's greed, and it has no place in a family. People who wanted kids, and deliberately waited until they were 35, and better able to support kids aren't the same.

 

[greenfreak]

Thanks for that Prof, you've explained quite eloquently. I know it must be hard to explain, I know I could never fully sympathize but I have an inkling of what you mean. I also know the love I have for my nieces and nephews is probably nowhere near as much as if they were my own children, but damn it sure feels like a lot.

It's the ones who decide at 35, or 40, or even 50 these days that they've missed something and now they want it, that I despise. That's greed, and it has no place in a family. People who wanted kids, and deliberately waited until they were 35, and better able to support kids aren't the same.

It's so great to hear that. It's something I repeat time and time again. Along with that there are so many parents out there that choose to have children for the wrong reasons. And those may turn out to be great parents but it's not a good place to start.

As for being considered a selfish sack of shit because I choose not to squirt out some babies, that is a revoltingly egotistical statement. If I were barren -- by disease or by birth -- would you still feel the same way? What if the man I loved could not have children? Should I dump him for one with viable sperm cells?

Another good point, that's what I was thinking of too when I said don't question the childless on why they don't have kids. My sister's best friend talked about having a family from the time they were teenagers. When it came time, they found out that they could not, for medical reasons. Or what about the women who do try but continually have miscarraiges? What a feeling that must be, to have to decide whether to tell them why or make up a lie.