Another school shooting

[MitchSchaft]

Man, thanks for explaining yourself because I was really confused for a minute. I thought you were trying to say it was prohibitive of us. But now I know what you're saying! I'm not gettin' defensive I was really confused.

About the Bible quotes, I meant I wasn't gonna dig up the selfdefense deals, not firearms. I know it says nothing about firearms because firearms didn't exist 2500-2000 years ago. I didn't know there was more than one verion of KJV. I know there's the NKJV, but that's not the same in my opinion. Some jackass just thought they would throw the name KJV to make people feel better or something.

Do you have any idea where that "right to keep and bear arms" came from? I'm referring to the one mentioned in the 2nd Amendment.

No, I don't know where the right to bare arms came from before the 2nd amendment. Next time try not to confuse me so much

 

[freako104]

i know im a little late but heres my stand. i am anti gun but ill admit im a hypocrite in that i belive if used correctly and if parents do their damn jobs, there will be no reason to fear guns and i would have one if my future wife or gf would let me. however it would be in a placew only she and i knew and i would teach my kids about it. and for gods sake parents do your jobs!! television is not a babysitter. i will admit in todays day men and women are workign and i think its great but we need someone to watch our kids. if someone can teach these children some morals and values maybe theres less of a chance of this crap happening. i will still say id like some stricter gun laws but moreover i want parents in childrens lives. its time parents did what was roight and teach kids.

 

[MitchSchaft]

You don't sound anti-gun you sound in between or confused. And we don't need stricter laws. We need to enforce the ones we already have, which is a shitload. And you are correct about the parenting deal.

 

[freako104]

put it this way. we need to enforce them but i say we should do background checks on the person. and i am anti gun to an extent. i dont see why with all the technology and how far weve come as humans we still make weapons rather than peace but i can understand them for hunting and self defense. and im glad you agree with me on the parents thing.

 

[MitchSchaft]

Originally posted by freako104
put it this way. we need to enforce them but i say we should do background checks on the person. and i am anti gun to an extent. i dont see why with all the technology and how far weve come as humans we still make weapons rather than peace but i can understand them for hunting and self defense. and im glad you agree with me on the parents thing.

We do background checks. What do you mean by that? And as far as the peace thing is concerned, it's human nature. There is no way around it, in any shape or form. This is not a fantasy la-la land. There are people out there that are mean, destructive beasts that will do whatever they can to destroy people for reasons as stupid as fun or $5. And I will do my best to keep them from destroying me or my family.

 

[Rotten Rob]

Humanity

We do background checks.

This is one of those laws we already have that you say needs to be enforced. Background checks need to be standardized across the nation, throughout all 50 states. Right now, several different (and incompatible) systems and rules are used. A buyer will be checked only at licensed gun dealers, but not necessarily at gun shows - and certainly not at the garage sale down the street. And if the background check isn't completed in a few days, the dealer can sell the firearm anyway. It's still a joke, really.

There are people out there that are mean, destructive beasts that will do whatever they can to destroy people for reasons as stupid as fun or $5.

...for fun, or $5, or for cutting them off on the road, or for cheating on them, or for looking at them the wrong way in a bar, or for giving them a bad grade in school, or for following a different religeon ...

In regard to "the peace thing" you said "it's human nature?" I don't follow you. Are you saying desiring peace is part of human nature? Or are you saying being a destructive beast is part of human nature?

Congrats on getting hitched, by the way! Another one bites the dust, eh?

- RR

 

[freako104]

i dont know that its human nature. and i agree ill protect my family and friends from people who would hurt them in any way shape or form. background checks?? if there were background checks do you really think some of those people with guns would ave them?? people with pyschological problems are able to buy guns and im not sure that they should have them. ill admit that throughout history, humans have engaged in violence and wars however i believe that it is trying to change but some people wont change fro whatever reason.

 

[MitchSchaft]

Death & destruction and wanting to obtain peace are human nature. That's how people always have and always will be. Technology has nothing to do with human emotion.
Every licensed dealer in the US is required to do a background check according to Federal law. Only private sellers don't have to. Like if I we were neighbors and you wanted to buy one of my rifles and I wanted to get rid of it. That's what most people seem to be worried about. Like, the private sellers at gunshows.

 

[ris]

what is the proportion of sales from licenced dealers to private sales? once a gun goes into private sales how is it tracked or safe ownership ensured?

 

[MitchSchaft]

That's what everyone's talking about these days. Once it leaves the dealer's hands then it's basically free reign. And some states make you register your weapons. But that doesn't go well with most people. It basically gives the government the ability to confiscate your guns whenever they would want to. That's another dead end street. Either way, people are gonna get ahold of them. You can't keep track of everybody/everything in that way.

 

[Rotten Rob]

Death & destruction and wanting to obtain peace are human nature. That's how people always have and always will be.

Progression toward a state of peace is natural, yes. "Death & Destruction" is an aberration against humanity - not part of human nature. I guess we disagree.

You can't claim it's part of our 'nature' to be destructive when the vast majority of our species throughout the ages have proven to be just the opposite. And you certainly can not predict that we "always will be" based upon the actions of a very small percentage of our species throughout history.

And some states make you register your weapons. But that doesn't go well with most people.

Actually, that doesn't go well with the minority - us gun owners. The majority would prefer a comprehensive registration scheme similar to that used for motor vehicles. Every year, registration schemes are gaining popularity too.

It basically gives the government the ability to confiscate your guns whenever they would want to.

No, it gives the government, you and I, a fairly accurate idea of gun ownership, and a way to track it. The government already has the ability to confiscate firearms whenever it wants to - and registration, contrary to popular propaganda, does nothing to 'enable' this.

Either way, people are gonna get ahold of them. You can't keep track of everybody/everything in that way.

There will always be thefts of firearms, true. Registering a firearm won't prevent a thief from taking it. But the vast majority of firearms used in crimes are not stolen property. They are guns bought through private sales or through unlicensed resellers. Registration would indeed put an end to that, since every owner could then be required to meet the background and licensing criteria.

So, while you are correct in saying you can't keep track of everything (just like with auto registration), you can certainly keep track of almost everything - especially transactions of firearms to people that shouldn't have them.

Rob

 

[MitchSchaft]

You win, Rob.

 

[Rotten Rob]

Mitch,

I win? Maybe a battle or two, but not the war. Can't have victory while there are still folks wanting to totally ban firearms without justification.

As for the 'human nature' argument you introduced, there is nothing to win there. It just saddened me to see you display such a defeatist attitude, with your comments about death and destruction being normal, and humanity never having peace. These don't sound like the words of a newlywed with a good home and a child on the way. I can only imagine what you have lived through to leave you with such a harsh and skewed view of human nature. As you said, this isn't la-la fantasy land, and we may never have perfect peace, but the struggle toward these things is what makes us human. Those who strive to make this world a better place shouldn't be dismissed with the wave of a pessimistic hand.

- RR

 

[MitchSchaft]

I'm confused as to your stance on just about every issue you bring up. So, to me, it's like beating a brick wall.

*dusts feet off and walks away*

 

[freako104]

rob i do agree with you. however mitchshafy also made some good points about protecting ones family so i agree to that. since i dont own any guns i dont know all the laws so thanx for clearing some of them up guys. as afar as the guns being free reign, can i ask how they are free reign if the person buying them should be the only person who uses it?(unless teaching about the gun or hunting etcetra) the gov't can repossess any guns at any time as far as to my knowledge. and humaity has changed its emotions. jsut a few are still violent but for the msot part id say weve come a long way.

 

[MitchSchaft]

can i ask how they are free reign if the person buying them should be the only person who uses itunless teaching about the gun or hunting etcetra) the gov't can repossess any guns at any time as far as to my knowledge

What I meant by free reign is the government does not have control over what happens to them after they leave a licensed dealer. And the gov't cannot reposses firearms unless you've become convicted of a crime. You can find that in the 2nd Ammendment.

 

[Rotten Rob]

can i ask how they are free reign if the person buying them should be the only person who uses itunless teaching about the gun or hunting etcetra) the gov't can repossess any guns at any time as far as to my knowledge.

What Mitch was saying is that once guns are initially sold by a licensed dealer, they can then be resold to another person without going through government required background checks, etc. This essentially makes background checks useless, and Mitch is correct - this issue is one that is being rigorously debated now.

Our government can confiscate firearms if you have comitted crimes wherein the punishment specifies that you may not possess firearms. Being convicted of other crimes, such as petty vandalism, does not allow confiscation. Firearms may also be confiscated for other reasons, such as not being mentally capable of, or old enough to possess them. If we someday desire, as a society, that firearms should be prohibited, we need only to pass laws making them illegal - and that is all our government needs to "be able to confiscate" them. By the way - there is nothing in the 2nd Amendment that addresses any of this. The 2nd Amendment only prevents our federal government from disarming the regulated Militia. This will remain so until the 63 year old ruling of the highest court in the land is reversed.

Mitch says:

I'm confused as to your stance on just about every issue you bring up.

Perhaps that's because I haven't taken "stances." I simply read what people post, and if I spot obvious errors - I correct them. I also haven't "brought up" any issues. I keep things simple by only responding to the issues others have already raised.

I think you understand perfectly well everything I've said. If you need anything clarified, however, just let me know and I'll do my best.

- RR

 

[MitchSchaft]

No, I do not need clarification as to what you stand for. Like I said, you won.

 

[Rotten Rob]

Cool - what did I win? :gun5:

*holsters his guns and strolls away*

- RR

 

[freako104]

thanx for clearing that up. you win the argument and your prize is $10,000,000!! jk