Apathy and its consequences...

a13antichrist

New Member
Have you ever looked up "point of view" in a dictionnary? Point of view pertains to opinion, not fact. flav's example is FACT, pure and simple - either it deals with one subject, or it deals with many. That is FACT, regardless of which one you choose to believe. Whether the US should have attacked Iraq is a matter of OPINION or point-of-view; whether the example referred to one subject or many can only ever be one of right or wrong.
 

unclehobart

New Member
Guys... adding the little degrading sideswipes after your viewpoints are only serving to smother what you are saying. 10 minutes from now, noone will remember what the other said that was valid. Nothing will come to mind other than 'kindergarten! preschool! narrow-minded!'
 

a13antichrist

New Member
First of all, kindergarten IS preschool, so good work on the originality.

Secondly,

PuterTutor said:
No, on second thought, cancel that. Are you really that damn stubborn to sit here and argue when you know you are wrong? How on earth can you compare a study of a population of millions to a study with a population of 1?

I can see only two options - either you didn't read my post explaining why you were wrong, thus cementing for everyone your total blind belief in PT-is-right-no-matter-what, or you're just so damned stupid that you can't see your mistake even after it's been spelled for you - which would explain how you came to make the mistake in the first place.
 

PT

Off 'Motherfuckin' Topic Elite
First, I can see a mistake, but it isn't mine. Second, where you're from, kindergarten may be preschool, here, it is not.

Third, I got my degree from Columbia College, Columbia Missouri. I took Statistics and Statistics for the Behavioral Sciences, and received A's in both.
 

PT

Off 'Motherfuckin' Topic Elite
You don't have many friends do you? Can you speak your mind without being insulting, or is that the way your mind works?
 

a13antichrist

New Member
Just consider this:

"50% of soda belongs to John". You're saying that makes John the subject.

So then "50% of soda is green" makes "green" the subject?
 

flavio

Banned
I proved the logic faulty with the other example of soda and anchovies as well. That one dealt with the entire population....which I know you read PT.

You just can't admit the fallacy in the logic no matter how it is put to you.
 

PT

Off 'Motherfuckin' Topic Elite
No, it doesn't. My argument is not in the subject but in the logic that that somehow compares to the original analysis that 50% of the anti-war demonstrators did not vote. You are taking an analysis of one individual and comparing it to an analysis of millions. There is no basis for comparing the two population sizes.
 

PT

Off 'Motherfuckin' Topic Elite
flavio said:
I proved the logic faulty with the other example of soda and anchovies as well. That one dealt with the entire population....which I know you read PT.

You just can't admit the fallacy in the logic no matter how it is put to you.

I'll admit it if I see it, but I don't see it. There is a direct correlation between voting and how you feel about issues. There is no direct correlation between soda and anchovies.
 

flavio

Banned
flavio said:
The problem is in trying to tie together unrelated facts like

50% of the U.S. drinks soda
50% of the U.S. eats anchovies
50 % of the people who drink soda also eat anchovies.

The last statement is very suspect.

PuterTutor said:
50 percent of the people in the US are against the war.
50 percent of the people in the US did not vote in the last election.

By the law of statistics, 50 percent of the people that are against the war did not vote in the last election.

They have about equal validity...not much.
 

outside looking in

<b>Registered Member</b>
Fine, Flavio's ridiculous example was technically a valid statistical example. That doesn't change the fact that his example had precisely ZERO relevance to the topic of this thread. Flav, if you really think you've shown the fault in the argument's logic, then why don't you read my post a page or so back and explain exactly where you disagree.

:rolleyes:
 

a13antichrist

New Member
PuterTutor said:
There is a direct correlation between voting and how you feel about issues.

Yes and that is precisely thepoint that flavio was trying to make. You can't simply say that logically, 50% of those protesting did not vote because these two things (voting and protesting) are not mutually exclusive - there are other factors involved, as you rightly point out.

PuterTutor said:
No, it doesn't. My argument is not in the subject but in the logic that that somehow compares to the original analysis that 50% of the anti-war demonstrators did not vote. You are taking an analysis of one individual and comparing it to an analysis of millions. There is no basis for comparing the two population sizes.

As someone who obviously likes to think he has at least a moderate degree of mental capacity, I would think you would have spent a little more time considering what I posted regarding your "one-subject" nonsense. THE SAMPLE IS NOT JOHN - IT'S THE SODA. Everything else we've said aside, I am right about this whether you like it or not. I will bet the life of my first-born child against it. Please go back and think about it again.
 

a13antichrist

New Member
outside looking in said:
Flavio's ridiculous example was technically a valid statistical example. That doesn't change the fact that his example had precisely ZERO relevance to the topic of this thread.


No, you're right, it doesn't change that in the slightest - although I wasn't arguing that side of it.

Although I will stop to point out that flav's example sought to draw into question the relevance of the logical conclusion drawn by PT in his example. Whether he is right or not is yet another issue which I won't bother getting into to, but it was as relevant as it needed to be. But as I said, I wasn't really trying to argue that point...
 

outside looking in

<b>Registered Member</b>
a13, maybe I'm mistaken, but the original argument (from a statistics point of view) had two subjects. The population, of whom roughly half didn't vote, and the protestors, about whom we are trying to draw conclusions based on statistics regarding the first subject. The protestors are an implied subject, in the sense that a blind conclusion would be "half of all protestors voted."

And, technically, we are talking about combined statistical properties. i.e., 50% x 50% = 25%. For this to be valid, all populations involved must be of statistically relevant size. Half voted x Half protest = 25% are non-voting protestors (ignoring obvious relationships between voting and protesting). In Flav's case, Half Pepsi x Half John's = 25% is Pepsi and John's. That's doesn't identify what "John's" is though. It could be a brand name. Flav was attempting to point out that, because John was a person, and could easily choose soft drinks different from what statistics would suggest, that this is somehow relevant to millions of voters. My, what a leap. Individuals may make such choices, but statistically that influence will average out, or at the least just skew the final histogram. Shouldn't that be obvious?

I thought I'd go through this drivel to stop you short of another chest-thumping ego-swelling dissertation on how intelligent you are and how ignorant we all are. If you were in my class, you would have failed.



Now, that being said, it doesn't matter if it's 50%, 40%, 60%, or whatever. Gato has already clarified what his point was, and the numbers are practically irrelevant to that point.
 

flavio

Banned
a13antichrist said:
If the president had proposed killing a little baby because it was ugly, no-one would tell the protesters that they should shut up if they hadn't voiced their opinion when the president was elected.

Interesting point.
 

RD_151

New Member
Hey wait, I even voted FOR Bush, and I'm against the war. Ok, i was originally against it. Over time, with the constant bombardment of propaganda I became indifferent.

The point isn't that voting for a president means you support or back EVERYTHING that guy does. In fact, sometimes they can trick you, and you will actually not support MOST of what he does, even though you voted for him! Like this guy, GW. I voted for him, but I am opposed to MOST of what he does!

This was a bad argument Gato, sorry, but I disagree with this argument strongly.
 

a13antichrist

New Member
No oli, you're making a mistake in that we're still talking about the soda - it's the soda that's in question, not John, and thus we're learning about the SODA, and not John. To get this information, we would have had to ask each and every can of soda who it belongs to - and half of the cans would have said John. There is no question that you could have asked John to get the information you did, other than "how much soda do you have", in which case you're not doing a statistical survey but rather an inventory.

As for the rest of your post, I agree totally - but as I said, I'mk not trying to question those points.
 

PT

Off 'Motherfuckin' Topic Elite
RD_151 said:
Hey wait, I even voted FOR Bush, and I'm against the war.

Good Point, RD, however, there are probably people out there that voted for Gore that support the war too.
 

RD_151

New Member
the point is, voting for or against this that or the other thing aren't necessarily related. They can be, but they don't have to be.
 
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