hey English members ...a question ...

[Gato_Solo]

Gato - that was an idealisticly Utopian statement ... one that I agree with on a global level. Unfortunately, that's not the way it is ... sometimes by choice and sometimes by circumstance.

ris - the Family Allowance vs Family Wage thing is so fascinating to me. It seems, when it was first thought of, there was a wish to return to some sort of Socialist environment - to bring everyone up to par, so to speak. It is/was a fascinating idea, well, what I've read of it so far ... and that's not much

Perhaps, Na, perhaps, but it's also a statement of maturity. A boy can make a baby, a man will be responsible for that baby...and it ain't just child support.

 

[nalani]

oh, I couldn't agree with you more ... I'm just saying, sometimes, even the parents that want to care financially and emotionally for their children, cannot. If everyone were perfect and completely equal, then there would be no discussion on the matter.

Sometimes the ability, or inability, to care for ones child has nothing to do with the question of maturity.

 

[Gato_Solo]

True, true...but everyone is not perfect, as you've stated, and everyone is not equal, as I've experienced...Of course, there is a third option...don't have kids.

 

[Luis G]

it comes again theory vs reality.......

Many of you say that socialism works in theory but not in reality, same goes for pure capitalism, in theory it works, but the reality is different: the richer gets richer and poor gets poorer.

Don't hold up to a strict idealisms, 'cause in the end those are just ideas and in most cases they are flawed.

 

[nalani]

I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, because you seem to be debating me and I feel compelled to answer at each turn ...

Yes, I agree - there are some people out there that should not procreate. But you seem to be making a very broad and general statement without actually making that statement. What I'm getting from you is, if you cannot financially take care of a child, do not have children. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Like I said, you're not actually making a statement, but rather, alluding to such.

The question I would pose to such a broad generalization is, what of the parent who is left widowed ... or becomes divorced ... or, for whatever traumatic reason, becomes emotionally unfit or unstable ... what of the millions of circumstances after you've already become a parent?

 

[nalani]

it comes again theory vs reality.......

and that's exactly what we're studying ... the "what didn't work" and the "why didn't it work?" thing ... very, very, interesting ...

 

[ris]

na, our post-war welfare state program is currently undergoing great upheaval and evolution. i've lost track of what much of it is although i do know bits and bobs.

gato, you'd be delighted to here that the state-given child support money for single mothers is extracted from the errant father by the child support agency [csa] in return. so if they're not prepared to be responsible for the welfare of their child they're damn well made to

 

[nalani]

they're supposed to do that here too, ris ... but it's not enforced heartily enough ... for me, it's just easier to say "no, I dont' want child support" rather than fight him for it every month ...

 

[unclehobart]

Its enforced like a mofo here in Georgia.

I think that upon a mere complaint of the mother, without any burden of proof upon her part, with all proofs of timely and ethical behavior on his part... you can have your drivers license revoked, an arrest warrant issued, wages garnished, all financial accounts seized, picture published in the paper as a deadbeat, employer harassed, etc.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, because you seem to be debating me and I feel compelled to answer at each turn ...

Yes, I agree - there are some people out there that should not procreate. But you seem to be making a very broad and general statement without actually making that statement. What I'm getting from you is, if you cannot financially take care of a child, do not have children. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Like I said, you're not actually making a statement, but rather, alluding to such.

The question I would pose to such a broad generalization is, what of the parent who is left widowed ... or becomes divorced ... or, for whatever traumatic reason, becomes emotionally unfit or unstable ... what of the millions of circumstances after you've already become a parent?

1. The parent left widowed.

Part of being responsible is life insurance...just in case something bad happens.

2. The parent becomes divorced.

Enforced child support.

3. Becomes emotionally unfit/unstable.

The other parent has to step up to the plate and do the right things.

Since you drew me out, I'd like to add this, at the risk of no more smooches ( )...

It is not my job to pay for someone elses kids. I can sympathize, and, at my own discretion, choose to help out, but the decision should be mine. Not the governments. By the same token, I don't think anybody else should pay for my children. My last word is this...If you cannot be financially responsible, how can you be parentally responsible? You, Na are the kind of person every parent should be. You don't rely on the state to help you pay to raise your children, and you should'nt have to. Yes...I'll agree that there are always exceptions, but those exceptions should be taken on a case-by-case basis.

 

[nalani]

aww hun, I'll still smooch you ... and this is why:

1. You are always respectful, even when debating and idea you don't agree with or are passionate about. Because you are able to be respectful when you post your opinions, I am more apt to listen and, perhaps, attempt to see things through another perspective.

2. Your idealism, though to me may be unrealistic, shows me what you want out of life and out of this world .. not only for yourself, but for those you love.

C. You're cute

*SMOOCH*


I thank you for the compliment, and for your thoughts on the subject. I agree, to some extent, but I also think that the government should do more for its people. I wish I had more time to get in to it now - but I have to get going to a meeting. But I will say that I see your point very clearly

 

[karlwb]

The new Working Family TAX Credit ( think thats it's full title )
is great in theory but it's a nightmare to get any money out of them - if you don't fit in to the precise framework for the benefit.
My wife if not from this country (UK) so does not have a full National Insurance number, this was not a problem with the old system as they had a department set up to deal with this (but I don't think we qualified for that one anyway) however the new system does not have any such system in place, so we can not claim until they get thier act sorted out.

After I calling a number of government office I have only been met with excuses and a good long run-around, and in some cases rude ness - just about proclaiming that I should not have married a person who was not British.

 

[Inkara1]

So in places with a family wage... does the state send you a check every month? Or is it deducted from your taxes, thus increasing your take-home pay?

 

[nalani]

karlwb - that certainly does help me with my understanding ... in class, we were looking at it as a part of the socialist movement ... varying degrees of what is right for everyone is so interesting to study, especially when it's another country and whole other set of beliefs and practices.

 

[Leslie]

inky, I get a cheque monthly...direct deposit is also available

 

[Inkara1]

So it's basically like the child tax credit we have here, except you get a piece of your refund each month instead of all 12 pieces at once?

 

[nalani]

well, Inky, you're able to apply for your Earned Income Credit to be issued to you monthly/quarterly instead of in one lump sum at the end of the year. Problem with that is that you have to claim it in your taxes which may or may not bring up the amount of tax you owe ... for me, it's easier (and more affordable) to get the EIC at the end of the year as well as the extra child credit.

Funny - I never thought of the two being related

 

[Aunty Em]

Yes Family Allowance is automatic here until your child is 16, but can be claimed until they are 18 if they are still in full-time education... it's currently £16.25 for the first child and about £12 for subsequent children - only having one I don't know the exact amount. Working families can claim Child Tax Credit as well, the amount you get depends on your income and it is now paid directly to the mother as is FA.

 

[Leslie]

So it's basically like the child tax credit we have here, except you get a piece of your refund each month instead of all 12 pieces at once?

um....well no, not really...it's not really anything to do with income tax, it's just "there". There are some separate credits on the tax return as well that some may or may not qualify for.

 

[Aunty Em]

they're supposed to do that here too, ris ... but it's not enforced heartily enough ... for me, it's just easier to say "no, I dont' want child support" rather than fight him for it every month ...

That's not an option here if you recieve any form of social security benefit. In that case the Child Support Agency (CSA) chases the father for support payments which are deducted from the benefits paid. Obviously if you are working then you recieve the payments in addition to your salary, but it classed as unearned income and does affect your entitlement to other benefits such as Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit, Child Tax Credit, etc. if you are on a low wage.