House approves repeal of gay ban in military

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
oh.

well, then, what are the underlying design principles? let's establish that and then move on from there.

UCMJ

Do you see civilains here?
802. ART. 2. PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER
(a) The following persons are subject to this chapter:
(1) Members of a regular component of the armed forces, including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment; volunteers from the time of their muster or acceptance into the armed forces; inductees from the time of their actual induction into the armed forces; and other persons lawfully called or ordered into, or to duty in or for training in the armed forces, from the dates when they are required by the terms of the call or order to obey it.
(2) Cadets, aviation cadets, and midshipman.
(3) Members of a reserve component while on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal Service.
(4) Retired members of a regular component of the armed forces who are entitled to pay.
(5) Retired members of a reserve component who are receiving hospitalization from an armed force.
(6) Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve.
(7) Persons in custody of the armed forces serving a sentence imposed by a court-martial.
(8) Members of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Public Health Service, and other organizations, when assigned to and serving with the armed forces.
(9) Prisoners of war in custody of the armed forces.
(10) In time of war, persons serving with or accompanying an armed force in the field.
(11) Subject to any treaty or agreement which the United States is or may be a party to any accepted rule of international law, persons serving with, employed by, or accompanying the armed forces outside the United States and outside the Canal Zone, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.
(12) Subject to any treaty or agreement t which the United States is or may be a party to any accepted rule of international law, persons within an area leased by or otherwise reserved or acquired for use of the United States which is under the control of the Secretary concerned and which is outside the United States and outside the Canal Zone, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.
(b) The voluntary enlistment of any person who has the capacity to understand the significance of enlisting in the armed forces shall be valid for purposes of jurisdiction under subsection (a) and change of status from civilian to member of the armed forces shall be effective upon the taking of the oath of enlistment.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a person serving with an armed force who--
(1) Submitted voluntarily to military authority;
(2) met the mental competence and minimum age qualifications of sections 504 and 505 of this title at the time of voluntary submissions to military authority:
(3) received military pay or allowances; and
(4) performed military duties: is subject to this chapter until such person's active service has been terminated in accordance with law or regulations promulgated by the Secretary concerned.
(d)(1) A member of a reserve component who is not on active duty and who is made the subject of proceedings under section 815 (article 15) or section 830 (article 30) with respect to an offense against this chapter may be ordered to active duty involuntary for the purpose of-
(A) investigation under section 832 of this title (article 32);
(B) trial by court-martial; or
(C) non judicial punishment under section 815 of this title (article 15).
(2) A member of a reserve component may not be ordered to active duty under paragraph (1) except with respect to an offense committed while the member was
(A) on active duty; or
(B) on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal service.
(3) Authority to order a member to active duty under paragraph (1) shall be exercised under regulations prescribed by the President.
(4) A member may be ordered to active duty under paragraph (1) only by a person empowered to convene general courts-martial in a regular component of the armed forces.
(5) A member ordered to active duty under paragraph (1), unless the order to active duty was approved by the Secretary concerned, may not--
(A) be sentenced to confinement; or
(B) be required to serve a punishment of any restriction on liberty during a period other than a period of inactive-duty training or active duty (other than active duty ordered under paragraph (1)).
803. ART. 3. JURISDICTION TO TRY CERTAIN PERSONNEL
(a) Subject to section 843 of this title (article 43), no person charged with having committed, while in a status in which he was subject to this chapter, an offense against this chapter, punishable by confinement for five years or more and for which the person cannot be tried in the courts of the United States or of a State, a Territory, or District of Columbia, may be relieved from amenability to trial by court-martial by reason of the termination of that status.
(b) Each person discharged from the armed forces who is later charged with having fraudulently obtained his discharge is, subject to section 843 of this title (article 43), subject to trial by court-martial on that charge and is after apprehension subject to trial by court-martial for all offense under this chapter committed before the fraudulent discharge
(c) No person who has deserted from the armed forces may be relieved form amenability to the jurisdiction of this chapter by virtue of separation from any later period of service.
(d) A member of a reserve component who is subject to this chapter is not, by virtue of the termination of a period of active duty or inactive-duty training, relieved from amenability to the jurisdiction of this chapter for an offense against this chapter committed during such period of active duty or inactive-duty training.

The US military is subordinate to the Constitution & members of the Armed Forces are subject to local, state & federal laws, if they are not on base or acting unser the authority of their CO.
 

Gotholic

Well-Known Member
The following article was published in 2001:

Homosexuals in the Military

David Barton - 2001

Preface: There was a series of events that led to the need for this historical analysis. Below is a general chronology providing context. There were, no doubt, numerous other events that occurred-- newspaper articles, magazine articles, government reports, meetings, etc. However, these key events will preface the analysis:

January 20, 1993--William Jefferson Clinton assumes the Presidency, promising to end the historic ban on homosexuals serving in America's Armed Forces.

January 29, 1993--President Clinton issues the following memorandum to the Secretary of Defense, Les Aspin:​

I hereby direct you to submit to me prior to July 15, 1993, a draft of an Executive Order ending discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in determining who may serve in the Armed Forces of the United States.​

June 2-21, 1993--survey entitled, "Congressional Survey of All Active-Duty Admirals and Generals Shows Overwhelming Opposition to Lifting Military Gay Ban." Ninety-seven and a half percent do not wish to have homosexuals serve in the military. Over ninety percent of the military's senior officers question "national security" if homosexuals are allowd to serve.

July 19, 1993--"Don't ask; don't tell" plan announced by the President. Under this plan, new recruits are not to be asked if they are homosexual. Homosexual "orientation" is allowed; homosexual conduct remains a reason for separation.

July 23, 1993--Senate Armed Services Committee votes to pass law supporting President Clinton's policies.

July 27, 1993--House Armed Services Committee offers similar legislation.

Court challenges started by the ACLU and others, and debate rages in the media.

Elected officials and others begin requesting an historical perspective on homosexuals in the military. David Barton prepares the following essay, supporting the contention that immoral conduct never has been allowed in America's Armed Forces.​

In recent years, widespread discussions and hearings have been held concerning the issue of homosexuals serving in the United States military forces. This monograph will explore the issue via three questions:

1. Has homosexuality always been incompatible with military service?
2. Why should the military be concerned with a person's morality?
3. Why should homosexuality concern us as a society?​

Has Homosexuality Always Been Incompatible With Military Service?

While the issue of homosexuals in the military has only recently become a point of great public controversy, it is not a new issue; it derives its roots from the time of the military's inception. George Washington, the nation's first Commander-in-Chief, held a strong opinion on this subject and gave a clear statement of his views on it in his general orders for March 14, 1778:

At a General Court Martial whereof Colo. Tupper was President (10th March 1778), Lieutt. Enslin of Colo. Malcom's Regiment [was] tried for attempting to commit sodomy, with John Monhort a soldier; Secondly, For Perjury in swearing to false accounts, [he was] found guilty of the charges exhibited against him, being breaches of 5th. Article 18th. Section of the Articles of War and [we] do sentence him to be dismiss'd [from] the service with infamy. His Excellency the Commander in Chief approves the sentence and with abhorrence and detestation of such infamous crimes orders Lieutt. Enslin to be drummed out of camp tomorrow morning by all the drummers and fifers in the Army never to return; The drummers and fifers [are] to attend on the Grand Parade at Guard mounting for that Purpose. 1​

General Washington held a clear understanding of the rules for order and discipline, and as the original Commander-in-Chief, he was the first not only to forbid, but even to punish, homosexuals in the military.

An edict issued by the Continental Congress communicates the moral tone which lay at the base of Washington's actions:

The Commanders of . . . the thirteen United Colonies are strictly required to show in themselves a good example of honor and virtue to their officers and men and to be very vigilant in inspecting the behavior of all such as are under them, and to discountenance and suppress all dissolute, immoral, and disorderly practices, and also such as are contrary to the rules of discipline and obedience, and to correct those who are guilty of the same. 2​

Noah Webster--a soldier during the Revolution and the author of the first American dictionary --defined the terms "dissolute" and "immoral" used by Congress:

Dissolute: Loose in behavior and morals; given to vice and dissipation; wanton; lewd; debauched; not under the restraints of law; as a dissolute man: dissolute company.
Immoral: Inconsistent with moral rectitude; contrary to the moral or Divine law. . . . Every action is immoral which contravenes any Divine precept or which is contrary to the duties which men owe to each other. 3​

This meaning of the word "moral" versus "immoral" was understood throughout American society; the practice of sodomy was clearly adverse to and "contravene[d] Divine precept." The order to "suppress all dissolute, immoral, and disorderly practices . . . contrary to the rules of discipline and obedience" was extended throughout all branches of the American military, both the Army and the Navy. 4

It can be safely said that the attitude of the Founders on the subject of homosexuality was precisely that given by William Blackstone in his Commentaries on the Laws--the basis of legal jurisprudence in America and heartily endorsed by numbers of significant Founders. 5 In addressing sodomy (homosexuality), he found the subject so reprehensible that he was ashamed even to discuss it. Nonetheless, he noted:

What has been here observed . . . [the fact that the punishment fit the crime] ought to be the more clear in proportion as the crime is the more detestable, may be applied to another offence of a still deeper malignity; the infamous crime against nature committed either with man or beast. A crime which ought to be strictly and impartially proved and then as strictly and impartially punished. . . .
I will not act so disagreeable part to my readers as well as myself as to dwell any longer upon a subject the very mention of which is a disgrace to human nature [sodomy]. It will be more eligible to imitate in this respect the delicacy of our English law which treats it in its very indictments as a crime not fit to be named; "peccatum illud horribile, inter christianos non nominandum" (that horrible crime not to be named among Christians). A taciturnity observed likewise by the edict of Constantius and Constans: "ubi scelus est id, quod non proficit scire, jubemus insurgere leges, armari jura gladio ultore, ut exquisitis poenis subdantur infames, qui sunt, vel qui futuri sunt, rei" (where that crime is found, which is unfit even to know, we command the law to arise armed with an avenging sword that the infamous men who are, or shall in future be guilty of it, may undergo the most severe punishments). 6​

Because of the nature of the crime, the penalties for the act of sodomy were often severe. For example, Thomas Jefferson indicated that in his home state of Virginia, "dismemberment" of the offensive organ was the penalty for sodomy. 7 In fact, Jefferson himself authored a bill penalizing sodomy by castration. 8 The laws of the other states showed similar or even more severe penalties:

That the detestable and abominable vice of buggery [sodomy] . . . shall be from henceforth adjudged felony . . . and that every person being thereof convicted by verdict, confession, or outlawry [unlawful flight to avoid prosecution], shall be hanged by the neck until he or she shall be dead. 9 NEW YORK

That if any man shall lie with mankind as he lieth with womankind, both of them have committed abomination; they both shall be put to death. 10 CONNECTICUT

Sodomy . . . shall be punished by imprisonment at hard labour in the penitentiary during the natural life or lives of the person or persons convicted of th[is] detestable crime. 11 GEORGIA

That if any man shall commit the crime against nature with a man or male child . . . every such offender, being duly convicted thereof in the Supreme Judicial Court, shall be punished by solitary imprisonment for such term not exceeding one year and by confinement afterwards to hard labor for such term not exceeding ten years. 12 MAINE

That if any person or persons shall commit sodomy . . . he or they so offending or committing any of the said crimes within this province, their counsellors, aiders, comforters, and abettors, being convicted thereof as above said, shall suffer as felons. 13 [And] shall forfeit to the Commonwealth all and singular the lands and tenements, goods and chattels, whereof he or she was seized or possessed at the time . . . at the discretion of the court passing the sentence, not exceeding ten years, in the public gaol or house of correction of the county or city in which the offence shall have been committed and be kept at such labor. 14 PENNSYLVANIA

[T]he detestable and abominable vice of buggery [sodomy] . . . be from henceforth adjudged felony . . . and that the offenders being hereof convicted by verdict, confession, or outlawry [unlawful flight to avoid prosecution], shall suffer such pains of death and losses and penalties of their goods. 15 SOUTH CAROLINA

That if any man lieth with mankind as he lieth with a woman, they both shall suffer death. 16 VERMONT​

Based on the statutes, legal commentaries, and the writings of prominent military leaders, it is clear that any idea of homosexuals serving in the military was considered with repugnance; this is incontrovertible, with no room for differing interpretations. 17 The thought of lifting this proscription is a modern phenomenon, and would have brought disbelief, disdain, and condemnation from those who established our Armed Forces.

Why Should the Military Be Concerned With a Person's Morality?

Concern for the character and morality of military personnel has a strong historical basis. Our Founding Fathers recognized the importance of pure morals in our free society, and that philosophy extended to our military.

Before considering the importance of morality to the military, first consider some general statements on the importance of morality by those responsible for originally creating the rules that have stirred so much controversy of late in the debate over homosexuals in the military. John Adams (the founder of the Navy), on October 13, 1798, while serving as President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief, told the military:

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. 18​

Adams similarly explained:

Statesmen, my dear sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. 19​

George Washington, the nation's first Commander-in-Chief, summarized the same truth in his "Farewell Address." Significantly, this address was also partially authored by John Jay (the author of America's first military discipline manual) and Alexander Hamilton (a General during the Revolution). These three military leaders emphasized the necessity of moral behavior, declaring:

Of all the dispositions and habits which leads to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity [happiness]. Let it simply be asked, "Where is the security for property, for reputation for life, if the sense of religious obligations desert . . . ?" And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. 'Tis substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it [free government] can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric? 20​

Since moral behavior was necessary for society in general, it was even more necessary for military personnel in whose hands rested the security, and thus the future, of the nation. The importance of good morals in the military can be seen in the following three selections from Washington's general orders:

It is required and expected that exact discipline be observed and due subordination prevail thro' the whole Army, as a failure in these most essential points must necessarily produce extreme hazard, disorder, and confusions; and end in shameful disappointment and disgrace. The General most earnestly requires and expects a due observance of those articles of war established for the government of the Army which forbid profane cursing, swearing, and drunkenness; And in like manner requires and expects of all officers and soldiers not engaged on actual duty a punctual attendance on Divine service to implore the blessings of Heaven upon the means used for our safety and defence. 21

His Excellency [George Washington] wishes [it] to be considered that an Army without order, regularity, and discipline is no better than a commissioned mob; Let us therefore . . . endeavor by all the skill and discipline in our power, to acquire that knowledge and conduct which is necessary in war--our men are brave and good; men who with pleasure it is observed are addicted to fewer vices than are commonly found in Armies; but it is subordination and discipline (the life and soul of an Army) which next under Providence, is to make us formidable to our enemies, honorable in ourselves, and respected in the world. 22

Purity of morals being the only sure foundation of public happiness in any country and highly conducive to order, subordination, and success in an Army, it will be well worthy the emulation of officers of every rank and class to encourage it both by the influence of example and the penalties of authority. It is painful to see many shameful instances of riot and licentiousness. . . . A regard to decency should conspire with a sense of morality to banish a vice productive of neither advantage or pleasure. 23​

Consequently, moral improprieties were met with severe punishment in the American military-- as illustrated by the opening example in this paper.

Why Should Homosexuality Concern a Society?

Public discussions concerning homosexuality are a purely recent phenomenon; it was long considered too morally abhorrent and reprehensible to openly discuss. Consider, for example, the legal works of James Wilson, a signer both of the Declaration and the Constitution and appointed by President Washington as an original Justice on the U. S. Supreme Court. Wilson was responsible for laying much of the foundation of American Jurisprudence and was co-author of America's first legal commentaries on the Constitution. Even though state law books of the day addressed sodomy, when Wilson came to it in his legal writings, he was too disgusted with it even to mention it. He thus declared:

The crime not to be named [sodomy], I pass in a total silence. 24​

America's first law book, authored by founding jurist Zephaniah Swift, communicated the popular view concerning sodomy:

This crime, tho repugnant to every sentiment of decency and delicacy, is very prevalent in corrupt and debauched countries where the low pleasures of sensuality and luxury have depraved the mind and degraded the appetite below the brutal creation. Our modest ancestors, it seems by the diction of the law, had no idea that a man would commit this crime [anal intercourse with either sex]. . . . [H]ere, by force of common law, [it is] punished with death. . . . [because of] the disgust and horror with which we treat of this abominable crime. 25​

John David Michaelis, author of an 1814 four-volume legal work, outlined why homosexuality must be more strenuously addressed and much less tolerated than virtually any other moral vice in society:

If we reflect on the dreadful consequences of sodomy to a state, and on the extent to which this abominable vice may be secretly carried on and spread, we cannot, on the principles of sound policy, consider the punishment as too severe. For if it once begins to prevail, not only will boys be easily corrupted by adults, but also by other boys; nor will it ever cease; more especially as it must thus soon lose all its shamefulness and infamy and become fashionable and the national taste; and then . . . national weakness, for which all remedies are ineffectual, most inevitably follow; not perhaps in the very first generation, but certainly in the course of the third or fourth. . . . To these evils may be added yet another, viz. that the constitutions of those men who submit to this degradation are, if not always, yet very often, totally destroyed, though in a different way from what is the result of whoredom.

Whoever, therefore, wishes to ruin a nation, has only to get this vice introduced; for it is extremely difficult to extirpate it where it has once taken root because it can be propagated with much more secrecy . . . and when we perceive that it has once got a footing in any country, however powerful and flourishing, we may venture as politicians to predict that the foundation of its future decline is laid and that after some hundred years it will no longer be the same . . . powerful country it is at present. 26​

In view of the arguments listed by historical and legal sources, there is substantial merit for maintaining the ban on homosexuals in the military. 27 The Founders instituted this ban with a clear understanding of the damaging effects of this behavior on the military. This ban has remained official policy for over 200 years and one would be hard-pressed to perceive the need for altering a policy which has contributed to making America the world's foremost military power.

Source
 

spike

New Member
The following article was published in 2001:

Hard to grasp how hateful some bigots like the author of that article are. Yes, in the 1800's there was a lot more racists and bigots, that doesn't justify this assholes hate.

Homosexuality is not a moral issue. It's a sexual preference. That guys bigotry and hate, on the other hand, is incredibly immoral. People like David Barton should not be allowed in the military.
 

Gotholic

Well-Known Member
Hard to grasp how hateful some bigots like the author of that article are. Yes, in the 1800's there was a lot more racists and bigots, that doesn't justify this assholes hate.

I see no "hate" in his article. The time period is irrelevant if you believe in objective morality. Do you believe in objective morality?

Homosexuality is not a moral issue. It's a sexual preference.

A sexual preference does not negate a moral issue. Do you think pedophilia is a moral issue or just a sexual preference?

That guys bigotry and hate, on the other hand, is incredibly immoral.

He has not demonstrated hate. As for bigotry, yeah, you can say that. However, despite that being a "bigot" has a negative connotation, it is not intrinsically wrong. You are a bigot as well, spike. We all are in some fashion.

People like David Barton should not be allowed in the military.

I thought you were all about tolerance. That would be intolerant of you, spike. Bigots should have the right to serve our country.
 

spike

New Member
I'm discriminated against on a daily basis for a genetic deformity I've had since birth. The fact that I've got a penis means that I'm barred from half the public toilets across the country. That I've no sexual attraction to any other person I might encounter, they'll still put me in jail for going in there.

I think that's more up to individual businesses. The only info I could find is that it's specifically no illegal in some states. I'm sure you can see the difference between providing separate washrooms for privacy and barring a group of people from military service based in arbitrary things like sexual preference, race, or religion.

But if you really want to use the women's restrooms I suggest you fight for it.

Pedophiles are discriminated against for their sexual preference too.

Pedophiles and other criminals are prosecuted when they commit crimes. Being gay isn't a crime and if gay or straight people engage in relationships with other consenting adults it's not illegal and certainly isn't something that should be used to deny people military service.


Discrimination means I want something and someone said I can't have it for such and such a reason. Nothing more.

Not really, it's about making categorical distinctions.
 

spike

New Member
I see no "hate" in his article.

He's condoning discrimination by the government against a group of people who have done nothing wrong or illegal and even apparently "severe punishment".

The time period is irrelevant if you believe in objective morality. Do you believe in objective morality?

The time period is extremely relevant as many things in those times were acceptable in those times that we know now are wrong. Slavery, subjugation of women, racism, and bigotry towards people based on their sexual preference.

No, I don't believe in objective morality.

A sexual preference does not negate a moral issue. Do you think pedophilia is a moral issue or just a sexual preference?

In relationships between consenting adults there is no moral issue. You can add factors to make it a moral issue such as cheating but by itself there is no moral issue. Sex with children adds a moral issue.

However, despite that being a "bigot" has a negative connotation, it is not intrinsically wrong.

It's not intrinsically wrong. It's very wrong in this case as it would be to exclude groups from service based on hair color.

I thought you were all about tolerance. That would be intolerant of you, spike. Bigots should have the right to serve our country.

No, I have no tolerance for bigoted assholes and it would make much more sense to exclude racists and bigots from military service. It's just those type of assholes that would cause divisions and strife. David Barton's bigotry is also very immoral if you care about that type of thing.
 

Gotholic

Well-Known Member
He's condoning discrimination by the government against a group of people who have done nothing wrong or illegal and even apparently "severe punishment".

None of that would amount to hate.

The time period is extremely relevant as many things in those times were acceptable in those times that we know now are wrong. Slavery, subjugation of women, racism, and bigotry towards people based on their sexual preference.

No, I don't believe in objective morality.

You logic is self-defeating. You just admitted that slavery is not absolutely wrong. The only alternative to believing in objective morality is subjective morality.

In relationships between consenting adults there is no moral issue. You can add factors to make it a moral issue such as cheating but by itself there is no moral issue. Sex with children adds a moral issue.

Why would sex with children be a moral issue? What if the child consents to it? Too young? How young is too young? Define child. Define adult. How about incest or prostitution? Are those not moral issues?

It's not intrinsically wrong. It's very wrong in this case as it would be to exclude groups from service based on hair color.

But that is just their preference now. Who are you to say your morality is superior to the military's? Why can it be right for them but just not right for you? Why do you want to impose what you think is right for the military to do?

No, I have no tolerance for bigoted assholes and it would make much more sense to exclude racists and bigots from military service. It's just those type of assholes that would cause divisions and strife. David Barton's bigotry is also very immoral if you care about that type of thing.

But by your own logic, it is not objectively wrong to exclude homosexuals from the military. It is all just relative.
 

spike

New Member
None of that would amount to hate.

Ok, maybe he's just a dick.

You logic is self-defeating. You just admitted that slavery is not absolutely wrong. The only alternative to believing in objective morality is subjective morality.

Morality is subjective. We do get together and agree on things. Many of the things that were considered moral in that time period we generally agree are wrong now.

Why would sex with children be a moral issue? What if the child consents to it?

Children are not considered to be able to give informed consent. That's why it gets into a moral issue.

Too young? How young is too young? Define child. Define adult.

People get together to decide those issues the best they can. Consult your local laws.

How about incest or prostitution? Are those not moral issues?

The moral issue with incest is because of the possibilities of genetic problems with offspring. I don't really consider prostitution a moral issue. Consenting adults not harming anyone.

But that is just their preference now. Who are you to say your morality is superior to the military's? Why can it be right for them but just not right for you? Why do you want to impose what you think is right for the military to do?

A person having a sexual preference for the same sex has done nothing wrong or illegal. There is no rational reason to discriminate against them. It's just as wrong as discriminating against someone for their eye color.

Doing harm to someone that has done nothing wrong is immoral using rational thinking.

But by your own logic, it is not objectively wrong to exclude homosexuals from the military. It is all just relative.

No it's subjectively wrong. Other people find this type of bigotry somehow morally defensible. You just have to use logic and reason to show them their error.
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
I think that's more up to individual businesses. The only info I could find is that it's specifically no illegal in some states. I'm sure you can see the difference between providing separate washrooms for privacy and barring a group of people from military service based in arbitrary things like sexual preference, race, or religion.

But if you really want to use the women's restrooms I suggest you fight for it.


Um ... no. I believe in an individual's right to discriminate, thanks. I was making a sarcastic example for you to point out the absurdity of your own statement.


Pedophiles and other criminals are prosecuted when they commit crimes. Being gay isn't a crime and if gay or straight people engage in relationships with other consenting adults it's not illegal and certainly isn't something that should be used to deny people military service.

60 years ago, being gay was illegal (under sodomy laws that are still in effect if not enforced) and having sex with children was perfectly alright. The legalities you bleat on about are fairly new. The feelings behind them are millennia old.

Not really, it's about making categorical distinctions.

...based on...? exactly what I said. Based on what I want and what someone else doesn't want me to have or do.


And I DEMAND that you cut out automatically categorizing anything anti-anything you like as 'hate'. I can dislike individuals and groups perfectly well without hating them. I can dislike gay political actions without hating the individuals. I can hate the politicians using gay rights as a springboard without hating the people he's using. Continued use of the term hatred and its other forms to encompass non-homophiles is not only discriminatory but inflammatory.
 

catocom

Well-Known Member
And I DEMAND that you cut out automatically categorizing anything anti-anything you like as 'hate'. I can dislike individuals and groups perfectly well without hating them. I can dislike gay political actions without hating the individuals. I can hate the politicians using gay rights as a springboard without hating the people he's using. Continued use of the term hatred and its other forms to encompass non-homophiles is not only discriminatory but inflammatory.

hear hear!
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
Sexual congress between soldiers, regardless of race, sex, sexuality etc, are strictly forbidden while on active duty and in the field...period.

Canada's Top soldier in Afghanistan recalled for adultery.

To be more specific, he got recalled for breaking the rules re: Sexual congress between soldiers
The military has a strict non-fraternization policy for deployed troops, forbidding personal relationships of an emotional, romantic or sexual nature.

Doesn't matter who or how you plonk or which way you swing...you are not allowed to have sex with anyone while deployed. Hell, even married couples deployed at the same time cannot even kiss or hold hands while deployed...sucks to be them.
 

catocom

Well-Known Member
So mr B you are saying you believe that PC won't play a role, and that
all the law will be enforced?
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
Sex, homosexual or heterosexual is against the rules for military on deployment.

What the 'don't ask, don't tell' law touched that went beyond the original rule is that you could be sanctioned merely for BEING gay...even if you never acted on your sexuality.

Pedophilia (the preference) is not illegal... acting on the preference with someone underage IS illegal. Having pics of child-pron is illegal, as is creating it and sharing it.
Getting sexually aroused by the thought of kids is not illegal.

Bestiality (the preference) is not illegal...acting on this preference with an actual animal IS illegal.

Homosexuality is not illegal... in some states certain sexual acts between consenting adults (gay, straight or otherwise) is illegal.

In the military, while on deployment or even on-base while stateside, sexual relations are forbidden. Enforce it.

Simply BEING gay should not be forbidden.
 

Professur

Well-Known Member
Sex, homosexual or heterosexual is against the rules for military on deployment.

What the 'don't ask, don't tell' law touched that went beyond the original rule is that you could be sanctioned merely for BEING gay...even if you never acted on your sexuality.

just like being male in the female locker room.

Pedophilia (the preference) is not illegal... acting on the preference with someone underage IS illegal. Having pics of child-pron is illegal, as is creating it and sharing it.
Getting sexually aroused by the thought of kids is not illegal.


Obviously you haven't paid much attention. Hentai in Canada is equal to kiddie porn. CGI kiddie porn is illegal too. Both are only ideas. Both are enough to get you on a list. Hell, having an old Sears catalogue on the same shelf as your Penthouse is enough for charges to be filed.


Bestiality (the preference) is not illegal...acting on this preference with an actual animal IS illegal.

Actually, this isn't true in most places either. The charges usually filed in these cases is animal cruelty.


Homosexuality is not illegal... in some states certain sexual acts between consenting adults (gay, straight or otherwise) is illegal.

In the military, while on deployment or even on-base while stateside, sexual relations are forbidden. Enforce it.

Simply BEING gay should not be forbidden.

Again... IMO it's not as simple as worrying about gays humping on parade. It's even more than just worrying about gays getting their jollies staring at naked men in the showers. Think. It was hard enough putting blacks in with the whites. How do you protect gays from friendly fire?
 

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
just like being male in the female locker room.

Access rights. Certain areas are restricted to certain people. Sometimes based on rank, sex, confidentiality. Etc... Kandahar has dual-sex bathrooms.


Obviously you haven't paid much attention. Hentai in Canada is equal to kiddie porn. CGI kiddie porn is illegal too. Both are only ideas. Both are enough to get you on a list. Hell, having an old Sears catalogue on the same shelf as your Penthouse is enough for charges to be filed.
Not hentai - lolicon. The same laws as kiddie-porn apply. Ditto for GCIPorn. Same rules apply. Part V: Sexual Offences, Public Morals and Disordery Conduct: Offences Tending to Corrupt Morals. Section 163.1 defines child pornography to include "a visual representation, whether or not it was made by electronic or mechanical means", that "shows a person who is or is depicted as being under the age of eighteen years and is engaged in or is depicted as engaged in explicit sexual activity", or "the dominant characteristic of which is the depiction, for a sexual purpose, of a sexual organ or the anal region of a person under the age of eighteen years." The definitive Supreme Court of Canada decision, R. v. Sharpe, interprets the statute to include purely fictional material even when no real children were involved in its production.
Virtual child pornography is only permissable in Canada when it is strictly for private use only.[10]

The law does NOT stop you from being attracted to kids...nor control your thoughts.



Actually, this isn't true in most places either. The charges usually filed in these cases is animal cruelty.

But what if the pig liked it?


Again... IMO it's not as simple as worrying about gays humping on parade. It's even more than just worrying about gays getting their jollies staring at naked men in the showers. Think. It was hard enough putting blacks in with the whites. How do you protect gays from friendly fire?

The same way as you protect anyone from friendly fire, or sexual harrasment, or any other type of harrasment. :shrug:
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
JP, I kinda laughed a little when I read your post where you're putting us on. :roll2: Thanks for brightening my afternoon.

JP, blood transfusions are not done in battle situations. The injured soldier is taken to a field hospital and there given the blood transfusion from a stock of tested blood.
http://medind.nic.in/maa/t09/i1/maat09i1p30.pdf

As for the announcement, I think it's great. The Israeli military has no bar on homosexuals performing military service. Their experience has been without any problems. I'm gonna go with their experience on this subject.


The Israeli army has no bar because of their situation. They are surrounded by countries that would like to see them disappear, and they have a small population. They have no choice if they wish to survive as a nation. Countries in Europe have homosexuals in their military because their militaries are looked down upon as a bad choice of career, they have relatively small populations, and they are war-weary. They are also in the position of needing bodies in uniform, so they will accept anyone that is willing. You cannot compare our situation with anyone elses because we are not in their situation.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
.... because their militaries are looked down upon as a bad choice of career.

let's not forget to mention that the cultural elite liberals here feel the same way, and are just going to burden the military by pushing their pro-gay agenda!

:drink2:
 

valkyrie

Well-Known Member
... <snipptey snip>...
Again... IMO it's not as simple as worrying about gays humping on parade. It's even more than just worrying about gays getting their jollies staring at naked men in the showers. Think. It was hard enough putting blacks in with the whites. How do you protect gays from friendly fire?
I doubt you're going to get some gay guy choking his chicken in the shower while watching the other guys washing their hair. There are gays serving in the military as we debate this and you don't have reports of that now. That's not going to stop someone from jerking off alone later on, though. Just like I'm sure that's happening now with both heteros and homos.

To answer your protection question: you protect gays from friendly fire the same way blacks were protect from friendly fire when they began to serve their country with whites. The difference is that gays have always been serving their country integrated and the blacks had to be integrated. Of course this doesn't mean there weren't a few blacks "passing" and serving in an all white unit.
 

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
let's not forget to mention that the cultural elite liberals here feel the same way, and are just going to burden the military by pushing their pro-gay agenda!

:drink2:

Nice. You have nothing intelligent to add, so you denigrate.
 
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