How I would reboot the USA

JJR512

New Member
Works for me.

Tell ya what, if you want to study central planning-look at the Soviet Union or China. Those are (were) large central power seats. Look how well they're doing.

Say, isn't that capitalism?

Isn't what capitalism? Both were communist. The surviving one still is. And it's faulty logic to conclude that centralized power doesn't work just by looking at only two countries that were fundamentally different from the USA in multiple ways.

Just out of curiosity, do you have a wife or children? Own a business? Have anybody or own anything that you care deeply about and wouldn't want to see harmed or destroyed?
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
The Soviets dropped the union part & got right to capitalism. The Chinese economy is running on capitalism. They both relaized that socialism doesn't work. In fact, even the Europeans are getting away from socialistic economies & toward true blue capitalism. we're the only one going the wrong direction.

Yes, I own my own home. I am married & have a son. I've been mugged. I've had my home burglarized. I am highly protective of mine (private property is a fundamental responsibility)
 

JJR512

New Member
Yes, I own my own home. I am married & have a son. I've been mugged. I've had my home burglarized. I am highly protective of mine (private property is a fundamental responsibility)

Your wife and son have been in a car accident, are trapped in the vehicle, and are very seriously injured. Your town's rescue squad (the fire truck with the heavy rescue gear that gets people out of trapped vehicles) is out of service, it's getting repaired and is unavailable. There is a fully functional, fully equipped, fully staffed rescue squad sitting in the station in the next town, just sitting there doing nothing.

Now tell me again that each town taking care of its own problems and not helping out neighboring towns "works for [you]".
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
If we live in a community with only one set of "jaws of life" or one EMS unit, it's a chance we take. It is part of individual responsibility. (btw, my wife is a no-longer practicing EMS tech)
 

JJR512

New Member
If we live in a community with only one set of "jaws of life" or one EMS unit, it's a chance we take. It is part of individual responsibility. (btw, my wife is a no-longer practicing EMS tech)

Practicing or not, it doesn't matter if she is or was an EMS tech, a nurse, a doctor, or the surgeon general. Trapped in a car is trapped in a car no matter what your current or former occupation is or was.

And you're avoiding answering my challenge. Tell me that you wouldn't want the next-closest rescue squad to come save your family because you believe that no cross-jurisdictional assistance should take place.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
You're putting words in my mouth.

you believe that no cross-jurisdictional assistance should take place.
Where did you get that idea?

oh, and the information was just that, a tidbit of info that you might have found interesting.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
Our nation is one founded on & driven by the individual. One man can make the difference. By allowing the state, whether it's your county coroner, the Mayor, the Governor, all the way to the President....to control your life, you are not fulfilling your potential.

Our nation is based upon the greatness of the individual. Having limitations placed on you (ie regulations), having your labor stolen (taxes), placing limits on your safety (gun laws) , not allowing you to own your property (vehicle registrastion laws to property taxes), the state has taken away our liberty. More importantly, we've handed it to them, willingly. Sheep are led to the slaughter...there's no need to force them.

The state, from local to national, has a place. Getting out of your way should be it's first priority. However, as politicians have learned since the beginning of time, the state has to do nothing but promise you a piece of the pie for you to be led...what you forget is that the piece of pie you got was yours to begin with.
 

JJR512

New Member
You're putting words in my mouth.
JJR512 said:
you believe that no cross-jurisdictional assistance should take place.
Where did you get that idea?
I didn't get that idea from anywhere. I was asking you to tell me that that is what you believe. Going back several posts, understand that the point I am trying to make is that, in my opinion, there should be a national standard for EMS so that EMS agencies can help out other EMS agencies in emergenices when needed. A national standard implies that there is a national body to define, refine, maintain, uphold, and teach that standard. Clearly, this is not included in your "roads, stamps, and armies" limitation on the national government. What I am trying to accomplish by making this point is to get you to admit that perhaps there are other things the national government maybe should be involved in other than just "stamps, roads, and armies". Alternatively, if you continue to hold fast to the "stamps, roads, and armies"-only mindset, then I want you to admit that you are completely fine with the concept of EMS agencies not helping each other out, even though it means your loved ones, the people you care about, might get low-quality emergency service or no emergency service at all.

On to your next post...
Regulations are important because we know that without them, people will cut corners to make an extra buck, and that will compromise safety and health. Perhaps even our economic stability. Personally, I am glad that there are safety standards that make it pretty damned difficult for a person to accidentally fall into an industrial meat grinder. When I order ground chuck, I want ground chuck, not ground Chuck. And I do not care if the power to set and enforce these regulations exists at the national, state, or local level, as long as my ground cow is free of ground human. However, it seems that because meat can come from anywhere in the nation, it might make the most sense to put the power to regulate the meat industry at the national level so it can apply equally throughout the nation. It might get pretty difficult (which translates to expensive) for any single slaughterhouse and meat packer to worry about complying with the different regulations of fifty states.

Gun laws are the easy way out for politicians. I understand what they're trying to do but we both know that gun laws really only affect the good people. You won't get any argument from me that gun laws are truly solving the problems that they are ostensibly meant to solve.

Vehicle registration and property taxes do not change the fact that you own the property (assuming that you truly own it in the first place, that it's fully paid for and not technically owned by a bank or financing company). They are just ways for the government to fund itself. And, before you write what I know is going through your mind right now, let me just say that of course I understand that if the government was smaller, it would take less money to run and taxes and fees would be less. I would not debate that; it's a simple fact.

Vehicle registration fees are along the lines of what I was actually talking about in my original post. Put aside for the moment the issue of how big the government is or should be. Let's just assume for the moment that it is the size that it is. In my opinion, vehicle registration fees are a good thing because the fee is targeted at the people to whom the service applies. The DMV costs a certain amount of money to run. The bulk of this funding should not come from general taxes, in my opinion, because not everybody owns a vehicle, so non-vehicle-owners shouldn't have to pay for a service related to vehicles.

The question, if you're about to ask it, of if we need a DMV at all is, like just about everything else you've brought up, really a topic for another thread because it doesn't have anything to do with what I started this thread about, which is how to fund and organize the current government.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
We do not need the federal government to regulate state by state or local municipalities emergency services. It is not in their mandate. What works for one may not work for another. That is true in virtually every single instance.

Why don't you establish an EMS Uniformity Procedure & present it to the fire chiefs of any & all the municipalities you wish? We don't need Ted Kennedy writing a bill for this to happen. We need one enterprising person with a goal. A goal that need not include the federal gov't. It's you & your idea that could change the way emergency crews establish procedures. It's not GW's place (or Obama's).

I believe that the individual can care for himself. If there is need for government involvement, I believe that it should start local & stay local. The fewer people involved & the fewer laws the better. Never give away freedom.

Oh, try not paying your property tax bill & see who owns your property.
 

JJR512

New Member
The trouble is that there are several "enterprising" people, representing various "boards" or "groups" who claim to have the best interests of EMS at heart and try to do what you're talking about. For various reasons, some agencies choose to align with one, some with another. Another person, such as myself, entering that game with another new plan would just create even more chaos.

Oh, and when you said "not allowing you to own your property" my response assumed that the taxes were being paid. While the taxes are paid and there are no leans, you own it. Don't pay the taxes, don't expect that to stay the same. If the government takes your land because you didn't pay the taxes, that doesn't change the fact that you were the owner while you were paying the taxes.

Now, for my information, can you tell me what do property taxes usually pay for? I really don't know, so I'm curious. If anyone else besides Gonz is still reading this thread, feel free to chime in here.
 

JJR512

New Member
See, this is my point from my original post. A tax that only some people pay should not be used to pay for a service that benefits all citizens. It's not fair for only one segment of the population to have to foot the bill for something that would benefit another citizen that's not part of that segment. On the other hand, if there is some governmental service that only affects or is needed by only one segment of the population, then it is not fair for everyone to pay for that service through general taxes that everybody pays. This is one of the basic principles of my original post, though we seem to have gotten pretty far away from that.
 

JJR512

New Member
Let me go into a bit more detail about why the private associations that try to unite EMS fail.

Some group comes along, does some research, sees what's going on, notes the popular things to do, discovers the "best" way to do things, and comes up with a plan of how EMS should work everywhere. They have the research that backs up their plan, the data that shows why the procedures they're saying should be universal are the best. And probably 90% of their plan is what 90% of EMS agencies are doing already anyway. So many get onboard with this association's plan and make whatever little changes they need to make to their curriculum and their protocols. But not everyone. This association may say, "Use Product X to do this procedure, our research shows it's the best product for that job, it's much better than Product Y." Product Y accomplishes the same overall function as Product X but does so differently. Each product requires its own training as they are not used the same way. So, some EMS agencies that have bought into Product Y, have trained all their providers to use Product Y, have a large stock of Product Y already bought, and see in their experience that it does the job it's supposed to do so why bother switching to something else and retraining everybody, are quite reluctant to get onboard with a national association that requires Product X. (By the way, in case you were curious if I pulled this example out of my ass, this is an actual problem regarding the King Airway Tube and the Combi-Tube endotracheal intubation devices.)

What are the consequences of this problem? If there is some type of major disaster and EMS agencies from around the country send help to one jurisdiction--such as for a hurricane--then you will have Paramedics trying to work together while not knowing what the other is doing. Ah, but what if they don't actually work together, what if you have the representatives from each agency stick together so they can work with the people they know using the equipment and procedures they know, you ask? Here's what happens then. The EMS providers from some distant state get a patient that needs a procedure done that requires the use of Product X or Product Y. It doesn't really matter if X or Y is used; they both serve the same basic purpose. These EMS providers from some distant state use Product Y because that's what they know how to use and it's what they have because they brought it with them. Then they take the patient to the hospital. The local providers use Product X, and the local hospitals are familiar with Product X because that's what the local providers bring them patients with. Now they get this other product that they're not familiar with and don't know about. Now time gets wasted and chaos happens. And, to top it all off, when the EMS providers from some distant state use up all their Product Y--because it is, after all, a disaster, so equipment gets used up quickly--their restock will come from the local supply, which will include Product X but not Product Y. Now these EMS providers from some distant state will not be able to treat patients with the problem that requires the use of Product X or Y. They are rendered less effective.

The problem is that the ability of a private national association to enforce its policies is an illusion. Its enforcement can only extend to the EMS agencies that choose to be associated with that association, and any EMS agency can disassociate itself at any time it pleases. The problem is a lack of true enforcement, which it seems to me can only come from the government, because anything else is just voluntary. I'll be the first to say it would be great if all the EMS agencies would get together and do what's right for the greater common good without the government telling them they have to. It would be great if pharmaceutical companies thoroughly tested new drugs before marketing them because it's the right thing to do and they didn't need a government agency to tell them to. It would be great if airlines operated safely without a government agency telling them to. It would be great if everybody did the right thing because it's the right thing to do. I would love to live in a true utopian society; I have said so for years. Then the government would be so small it would be practically non-existant, and you would be so excited by that that you would cream your pants. At this point in our ongoing history, though, I think we both know that humanity is fundamentally incapable of achieving this. Perhaps in the far-distant future. Clearly, you and I would have vastly different ideas on how to get there. But that's a topic for another thread. (I know the title of this message board, but I feel there have been enough topics in this one thread already, most of which had little to nothing to do with what I originally discussed.)
 

catocom

Well-Known Member
OK after much though, I think the first thing I'd work on is making
people more versatile.

Many companies, mostly bigger corps, don't want a person to really learn
anything beyond the job they were hired for. much.

Most of the jobs I had, you started at the bottom, or close to it,
and worked your way up, learning the whole process along the way.
So if you reached the top because you excelled, you knew Everything about
that business.

Some people don't want to learn.
There are stationary jobs, but too many places that Don't need that structure, use it anyway. It cost a penny more to start with.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
The trouble is that there are several "enterprising" people, representing various "boards" or "groups" who claim to have the best interests of EMS at heart and try to do what you're talking about. For various reasons, some agencies choose to align with one, some with another.

So only one can be correct? Let each area set thier standards to best fit their needs. Local control. If you needs to talk with an EMT from another area, talk to him...we all speak the same language.

Don't pay the taxes, don't expect that to stay the same. If the government takes your land because you didn't pay the taxes, that doesn't change the fact that you were the owner while you were paying the taxes.

Then you are only leasing it from the government. Owning it means there ar no strings attached.

Now, for my information, can you tell me what do property taxes usually pay for? I really don't know, so I'm curious. If anyone else besides Gonz is still reading this thread, feel free to chime in here.

Depends on your locality. Typically, it pays for emergencey services, schools & beauracratic income.
 

H2O boy

New Member
See, this is my point from my original post. A tax that only some people pay should not be used to pay for a service that benefits all citizens. It's not fair for only one segment of the population to have to foot the bill for something that would benefit another citizen that's not part of that segment. On the other hand, if there is some governmental service that only affects or is needed by only one segment of the population, then it is not fair for everyone to pay for that service through general taxes that everybody pays. This is one of the basic principles of my original post, though we seem to have gotten pretty far away from that.

so you would be all for taking all funding from cigarette taxes and instead of spending it on whatever it gets spent on, let those monies be set aside for health care for smokers

i like it

take all the alcohol tax money and set it aside for drug treatment and free taxi rides home from bars

i like it

if a road needs paved, let those who drive on it pay the tax hike to cover the cost

i like it

if i can manage to avoid calling 911 for a period of five years, none of my tax money goes to emergency services

i like it

we all pay only for the services we use. in essence, we control our own tax bill. like a sales tax. if i dont want to pay sales tax i can refrain from spending

i like it
 

JJR512

New Member
so you would be all for taking all funding from cigarette taxes and instead of spending it on whatever it gets spent on, let those monies be set aside for health care for smokers

i like it
Tobacco taxes would go to the ATF. You remember the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms? Those guys would be funded entirely by taxes and fees that come only from the sale and use of: Alcohol, Tobacco, and...can you guess?...Firearms.

Nationalizing health care was absolutely not in my original or any other post. The sentence that immediately preceded this one should not be taken as me implying that I am against nationalizing health care. The sendence that immediately preceded this one should not be taken as implying that I am in favor of nationalizing health care. I am making absolutely no comment at this time that should be taken as being for or against the nationalization of health care. However, let me say this: If health care was nationalized, then I think I would probably feel that any expenses suffered by the national health care system that are directly related to or caused by smokers should be paid for by smokers.

take all the alcohol tax money and set it aside for drug treatment and free taxi rides home from bars

i like it
You can pretty much take my comments in response to the bit about cigarettes and reapply it here to alcohol.

if a road needs paved, let those who drive on it pay the tax hike to cover the cost

i like it
Did you not read any of Gonz's posts at all? If you had, you would realize that roads are actually one of the only few things that should be handled by the Feds. However, I can't recall ever seeing a federal road. I've seen many federal highways, though, but can't think of a single federal road. Guess the Feds aren't doing their jobs correctly again. Anyway, roads should be paid for by general taxes for reasons that will be explained after your next quote...

if i can manage to avoid calling 911 for a period of five years, none of my tax money goes to emergency services

i like it
Did you actually read my original post?
For example, the ATF would be funded entirely by taxes on alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, fees for applications for firearm permits, fines collected for violations of the related laws, etc. On the other hand, some essential services would be universally funded. These services are those that benefit everybody.
It seems to me that roads and emergency services are two more examples of services that benefit everybody. First of all, roads: The vast majority of people in this country depend on roads in one way or another. Many people need them to get to work or school. Many people need them to get to the store. Even an invalid needs roads. Somebody has to come take care of the invalid. The caretaker needs to get groceries from the store. Groceries get delivered to the store on roads. There are very few people in this country who live out in the wilderness, grow all their own foods, make their own clothes and shelter, make their own tools to do their own farming and sewing and building, are completely off the grid and never buy anything. But they don't count for the purpose of this discussion because they don't pay taxes, either! Secondly, emergency services. It is folly to reason that since you haven't needed some kind of emergency service lately that you don't need to contribute to their upkeep. The past is no guarantee of the future. If you suddenly and unexpectedly need an emergency service--and what other kind of need for emergency services is there other than sudden and unexpected--then you'll want it available immediately and you'll want it performed competently. But if you aren't paying for emergency services because you haven't needed them lately, then somebody else has paid for these emergency services that you are now using, and that's not fair to them, is it?

we all pay only for the services we use. in essence, we control our own tax bill. like a sales tax. if i dont want to pay sales tax i can refrain from spending

i like it
Services that can or might benefit everybody and are available to everybody should be paid for by everybody, even though all the services might not be used by all the people all the time. Many services (I hesitate to use the word "all") that only benefit or are used by or in relation to one segment of the population should be paid for primarily by only that segment of the population.
 

catocom

Well-Known Member
everything was mostly setup right during Regan, but got sidestepped through
'greedy' legislation.
We can't go back there atm because of circumstance, but the gov. could
go back and look at all the new laws, and should be able to see what can
be reversed.

but that'll never be done in the foreseeable future. They are too lazy.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
hmmm. maybe we can have a separate tax for every single thing on the planet, and a separate government agency to handle it.

road use tax?
sidewalk use tax?
police "services" tax?
baby delivery tax? (hey i ain't having no baby, let them girlies pay for that shit!)
dumb redneck that needs intervention from social services tax?
bulbous-nosed drunk tax?
wart removal tax?
ugly cousin tax?

wow. so much for small government. imagine the administration costs tracking all them different taxes!

:hippy:
 
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