How to foster the next generation of 'Terrorist' -102

[Inkara1]

Maybe they didn't understand what an American checkpoint was for? Maybe they were scared? Who really knows. Are the U.S soldiers at pains to sympathise with civilians caught up in this mess? Explain to them in Arabic that if they don't stop they will get mercilessly slaughtered?

It doesn't take that much intelligence to know to stop when cars ahead of you are stopping at the checkpoint, and guns are pointed right at you. A little quick to make assumptions about people's intelligence, aren't we?

 

[BeardofPants]

Have you taken a look at the RW postage rate lately? Then can you tell me a bit about who it is thats "overpowering the 'oppostion'"

He was talking about PiL, not OTC.

 

[ekahs retsam]

Yeah I thought you would like that. I was wating for either you or Gato to say something if truth be told.

And Mir is a guy last I heard (have to go to Camelyn for an exclusive though) and he most certainly is not 6'4 though while mostly mild he can be intimidating if you get on his bad side.

But thats ok, I had a couple of people ask how old I was becasue of my AV. Little did they know what is behind the kid with the shaking head. ***insert evil laugh here***

 

[Mirlyn]

Mirlyn's a dude?


Guess I learned something new today also.

Oh geeze.....cats out of the bag now....




110% male, I'm afraid.

Oh, and why am I so tall all of a sudden? I think you're all just short.

shit..... *runs fast now*

 

[Mirlyn]

But thats ok, I had a couple of people ask how old I was becasue of my AV. Little did they know what is behind the kid with the shaking head. ***insert evil laugh here***

Looks like grass to me....

 

[Starya]

It doesn't take that much intelligence to know to stop when cars ahead of you are stopping at the checkpoint, and guns are pointed right at you. A little quick to make assumptions about people's intelligence, aren't we?

Do we know for a fact that there were other cars driving by the checkpoint right before them? Was it even a known checkpoint? This is how the photograper describes the incident. I quote: "It was a routine foot patrol. As we made our way up a broad boulevard, in the distance I could see a car making its way toward us. As a defence against potential car bombs, it is now standard practice for foot patrols to stop oncoming vehicles, particularly after dark."
Did the driver know about that standard practice?

It was after dark. Could it be that the driver was unsure of the situation, lost his cool (humans do that sometimes), and just thought, "Let's get the hell away from here"? Warning shots were fired. Could the drivers immediate reaction have been: "Oh my god, they're shooting at us! We need to get away!"

You are right, Inkara. We should'nt be quick to make assumptions.

 

[samcurry]

eitherway, in war and especially in an occupied area they should have stopped.
look at it from the army guys point of view. Everytime a car shows up a bomb goes off.

And we can all sit back in our nice homes and complain all we want, but if you really want to make a difference go see your local recruiter and join up. Then come back in here and tell us how it really is on the front line. If your nervous your gonna die when you hear rockets overhead, or when a bomb goes off close by.
Otherwise freedom comes with a price. look at the french revolution, the AM revolution, and so on. do you think civies didnt die ?

 

[unclehobart]

The link is from the Independent. I would like a neutral source confirmation.

 

[Gonz]

Do we know for a fact that there were other cars driving by the checkpoint right before them? Was it even a known checkpoint? This is how the photograper describes the incident. I quote: "It was a routine foot patrol. As we made our way up a broad boulevard, in the distance I could see a car making its way toward us. As a defence against potential car bombs, it is now standard practice for foot patrols to stop oncoming vehicles, particularly after dark."
Did the driver know about that standard practice?

It was after dark. Could it be that the driver was unsure of the situation, lost his cool (humans do that sometimes), and just thought, "Let's get the hell away from here"? Warning shots were fired. Could the drivers immediate reaction have been: "Oh my god, they're shooting at us! We need to get away!"

You are right, Inkara. We should'nt be quick to make assumptions.

These people have dealt with checkpoints for over 2 years. It's nothing new.

 

[Gonz]

The link is from the Independent. I would like a neutral source confirmation.

"I was on foot patrol..."

So much for neutral.

 

[The Other One]

Welcome back T.O.O. !

You are too kind!



May I point out to tankie that it is a WAR and people get dead. These roadblocks did not pop up overnight. Any civilian (or--to be more accurate: Martyr) knows that they are supposed to STOP at these checkpoints. The guy was an idiot to try to take his vehicle through a checkpoint---unless---UNLESS---there was a specific task he wanted to accomplish.

Why would an Iraqi citizen load his family into the car and speed towards a vehicle roadblock where soldiers are firing warning shots? "A US military statement said troops trying to stop the car used hand signals and fired warning shots before firing directly at the car, killing the driver and front seat passenger." "US soldiers in Iraq approach a car after opening fire when it failed to stop at a checkpoint. Despite warning shots it continued to drive towards their dusk patrol in Tal Afar on 18 January." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/1.stm

Cars go "boom" all the time in Iraq---and I don't believe it's a vehicle defect:

http://www.tampabaylive.com/stories/2004/11/041129iraq.shtml
http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=2135
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/1/3/130506.shtml
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200409/s1192342.htm
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...10485oct31,1,4214950.story?ctrack=1&cset=true
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/14/1089694410505.html?from=storylhs&oneclick=true
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200409/s1192342.htm

See a pattern here?

Here's an article from the photog who took those pictures that you happily display in an attempt to paint U.S. soldiers as "war criminals":

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wocheck0120,0,532599.story?coll=ny-world-big-pix

On the evening of Jan. 18, as we made our way up a broad boulevard, in the distance I could see car making its way toward us. As a defense against potential car-bombs, it is now standard practice for foot patrols to stop oncoming vehicles, particularly after dark.

"We have a car coming," someone called out as we entered an intersection. We could see the car about a 100 meters away. The car continued coming; I couldn't see it anymore from my perch but could hear its engine now, a high whine that sounded more like acceleration than slowing down. It was maybe 50 yards away now.

"Stop that car!" someone shouted out, seemingly simultaneously with someone firing what sounded like warning shots -- a staccato, measured burst. The car continued coming. And then, perhaps less than a second later, a cacophony of fire, shots rattling off in a chaotic, overlapping din. The car entered the intersection on its momentum and still shots were penetrating it and slicing it. Finally, the shooting stopped, the car drifted listlessly, clearly no longer being steered, and came to a rest on a curb. Soldiers began to approach it warily.

The troops at that checkpoint did NOTHING wrong.

 

[Starya]

I never said anything about the soldiers doing anything wrong. Also, the link I provided has the same article as the link posted above: The incident worded by the photographer.

I am, however, somewhat confused. It is spoken of checkpoints, and that (of course) you stop when you reach one. Now, from the article above:

A routine foot patrol -- a dozen or so men from a platoon, carefully walking the dusky streets of Tal Afar just after sundown.
--
On the evening of Jan. 18, as we made our way up a broad boulevard, in the distance I could see car making its way toward us.

So, is this to be considered a "checkpoint" or roadblock? And is it certain, that the driver would know what the situation was about right away?

I am not pointing fingers in any directions. If the soldiers have good reason to suspect an approaching car is to blow up in their faces, then I would expect them to deal with it accordingly. But that doesn't mean I will just assume that the driver was some idiot who should have known better, or that the incident was "arranged". We have no idea what went on in his mind. We don't know how he interpreted the situation, or if there were other factors making him fail to stop. People sometimes panic and do irrational things, even when they know what they are supposed to do. We don't know.

 

[Nixy]

Oh geeze.....cats out of the bag now....




110% male, I'm afraid.

Oh, and why am I so tall all of a sudden? I think you're all just short.

shit..... *runs fast now*

I thought you were pretty tall too...and I've even met you...

 

[Spirit]

I haven't read all the articles - so I have a question - did they happen to find anything in the car to suggest they had some obvious motive for not stopping?

Regardless, these soldiers did what they had to do. Don't think for one second they don't come home and have nightmares over those kids. We saw one flash of a camera - they see it ALL the time. Take the bad with the good. Pray the children can have some semblance of a life after.

 

[The Other One]

I understand the terms "checkpoint" and "roadblock"

are interchangeable

like "medals" and "ribbons"



But seriously--I believe both are terms used to define a process of inspection and clearance before further progress is allowed.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/07/26/iraq.bombers.force/index.html
Some Iraq suicide bombers 'forced'

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. has evidence that some suicide bombers in Iraq may have been forced against their will to carry out attack missions.

A military official with the U.S. Central Command tells CNN that in one case after an attack, troops found a body with a foot tied with a rope inside a vehicle.

The official says there also is evidence of some individuals having their entire family held by extremists who then force them into suicide car bomb attacks.

The official also said in one instance, U.S. forces went to a house and captured extremists holding a family hostage until a bombing mission was completed.

U.S. military officials say they have noticed another tactic, to use so-called "weekend jihadists."

This generally refers to using young men from neighboring countries who come to Iraq, and have no money. Then they are pressured into conducting
attacks.

Since this guy had his entire family with him he was either out on a trip to Wally World and was turning around to the back seat to straighten out a child who was asking "are we there yet?" and so he didn't see the armed soldiers or hear the warning shots fired or he was taking his family on a trip to see Allah.

 

[Starya]

I understand the terms "checkpoint" and "roadblock"

are interchangeable

like "medals" and "ribbons"



But seriously--I believe both are terms used to define a process of inspection and clearance before further progress is allowed.

I don't mean if it was to be considered "one or the other", but if the situation could be defined as either, as it was a foot patrol moving up the road. I expect a checkpoint/roadblock would be more permanent (or at least at the same place for some time), so that locals would be aware that they were approaching one.

 

[Gonz]

I would expect them to deal with it accordingly.

Which, being & living in a war zone, is exactly what they did.

 

[Starya]

Which, being & living in a war zone, is exactly what they did.

Have I stated otherwise?

 

[Gonz]

You have insinuated that what transpired may be too extreme a recourse.

 

[Starya]

Actually, I haven't made any comments towards the actions made by the soldiers.

Sometimes that space between the lines is just that - an empty space.