Individual Rights and Prior Restraint

flavio

Banned
flavio said:
Privately owned roads? What's going to keep anyone following these "rules" especially if they change every couple blocks.

You didn't address this along with a few other points up there.

I also think people deserve to expect some safety when they go to eat instead taking a chance every time they go to a new restaraunt. I've worked at a couple restaraunts that I wouldn't eat at myself once I saw the conditions. The only time they even got anywhere close to acceptable was when they knew an inspector was coming. If nobody ever checked on them they would have been downright disgusting.
 

dan

New Member
flavio said:
flavio said:
Privately owned roads? What's going to keep anyone following these "rules" especially if they change every couple blocks.

You didn't address this along with a few other points up there.

I also think people deserve to expect some safety when they go to eat instead taking a chance every time they go to a new restaraunt. I've worked at a couple restaraunts that I wouldn't eat at myself once I saw the conditions. The only time they even got anywhere close to acceptable was when they knew an inspector was coming. If nobody ever checked on them they would have been downright disgusting.

i've seen privately owned roads. they suck. not the big ones with bridges or tunnels, but the little ones, just normal roads. uniformally crap.

and yes, i'd quite like to have some idea that the restaraunt probably won't kill me too. little places out in the middle of nowhere would probably lose all the customers pretty quickly if they started poisioning people - but a place in the middle of a big city which only tourists ever go to? when most custom is passing trade who're never going to revisit anyway the market pressure to not poision is way down there.
 

Ardsgaine

New Member
nambit said:
i've seen privately owned roads. they suck. not the big ones with bridges or tunnels, but the little ones, just normal roads. uniformally crap.

The market for larger roads is pretty much swallowed up by the guv'mint.

nambit said:
i'd quite like to have some idea that the restaraunt probably won't kill me too.

Oh, for crying out loud... no restaurant is going to stay in business poisoning its customers, regardless of whether the clientele is native or tourist. Tourists have their own sources of information about where to eat and what places to avoid.
 

Ardsgaine

New Member
This seemed appropriate to post here...

Congressional Hysteria Will Not Make Every Business Man Dishonest

By Edwin A. Locke

Edwin A. Locke said:
In response to the recent discoveries of dishonest practices at Enron and other companies, both houses of Congress have worked themselves up to a state of hysteria. They have written a slew of new business regulations, which are expected to be signed into law very soon, without holding extensive hearings, without having conducted serious legal research and without even having clearly identified the extent and causes of the current problems.

Congress should have started by asking itself the following question: Why, despite a never-ending slew of new business regulations over the past 100 years—does business dishonesty still occur?

The answer usually given is that such dishonesty is caused by selfish greed that was intensified by the booming 1990s economy. This answer is hopelessly superficial. The fact that a businessman feels like cheating does not make it good for him. In reality, it is not in the self-interest of businessmen to be dishonest. The end result of dishonesty, as many executives have discovered, is loss of their jobs and possibly the bankruptcy of their companies, personal disgrace and destruction of their reputations, lawsuits and even jail time.

Now let's consider the real reasons for business dishonesty.

The primary cause is philosophical. For more than 100 years our intellectuals, specifically our college professors, have been teaching students, including, future businessmen, that no absolute principles or standards exist, that you cannot be certain of anything, that the future is unknowable, that it is okay to try anything without thinking, that the truth is simply that which works at the moment, and that which works is what makes you feel better right now. In other words, there is nothing really wrong with dishonesty. The name of this vicious philosophy is pragmatism, founded by American philosopher John Dewey. Anyone who questions this philosophy is mocked as a dogmatic, narrow-minded, preachy moralist. Pragmatism is an open invitation to fraud—after all, you might get away with it and the money makes you feel good. Not all business students succumb to pragmatism; the better ones reject what they have been taught but more and more are falling prey to it, because they do not know of any alternative, and it has become more deeply ingrained in the culture over time. It should come as no surprise that crime in general, not just business crime, has increased markedly in recent decades.

A secondary cause lies in the perversity of business regulation itself. First, some laws are aimed at penalizing not the guilty but the innocent; for example, antitrust laws penalize the most successful businessmen simply for achieving market dominance.

Second, the sheer volume of business laws and regulations today is so massive that no businessman could obey them all; thus, cheating on some regulations is literally a requirement of business survival. Third, there are so many regulations aimed at businessmen, primarily at activities that the government has no moral right to regulate, that it has neglected its proper function, namely, to detect and punish fraud. Fourth, fraud laws themselves are often not clearly defined. It is apparent, for example, that Enron executives were guilty of some form of fraud. Much of it was tied to their use of special purpose entities (SPEs) that they designed to move company debt and risk off the books and thereby mislead stockholders. However, SPEs themselves are legal under current laws. Fraud laws did not specify that SPE risk and debt should be reported to stockholders. In sum, the government is spending too much time and effort persecuting the innocent and too little time and effort stopping real fraud. In such a nightmarish business climate—the inevitable outcome of a mixed economy—who will be most at home? Why, of course, the pragmatist. His focus will be not on running an honest business but seeing how much he can get away with before everything comes crashing down.

To prevent future business fraud we need two things. First, we need a philosophical renaissance that replaces pragmatism with an objective system of morality that identifies what virtue is and how one should practice it. Only two, but radically different, types of moral absolutism exist today: religion, with a morality based on faith, and Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism, with a morality based on reason. Both advocate the virtue of honesty, but only Objectivism demonstrates why honesty is a virtue and dishonesty self-destructive. Second, we need the government to properly define and enforce antifraud laws—and nothing more. If we do these two things, we can avoid congressional hysteria and endless and oppressive new laws that do not touch at the root of the problem we are faced with.

Edwin A. Locke, a professor of management (emeritus) at the University of Maryland at College Park, is a senior writer for the Ayn Rand Institute in Irvine, Calif. The Institute promotes the philosophy of Ayn Rand, author of Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead.
 

flavio

Banned
Ardsgaine said:
Oh, for crying out loud... no restaurant is going to stay in business poisoning its customers

Yes, but they could stay in business if they only have roaches crawling through your food.
 

flavio

Banned
Ardsgaine said:
Spoken like a true statist.

...I would like to point out as well that before you start dismissing me as a "statist" (which prompted me to call you a wacko), that on both spectrum tests I scored well into the libertarian range.
 

Ardsgaine

New Member
flavio said:
...I would like to point out as well that before you start dismissing me as a "statist" (which prompted me to call you a wacko), that on both spectrum tests I scored well into the libertarian range.

Libertarians don't typically argue for government regulation of business. Laissez-faire is kind of a central tenant of the movement. How did you respond to these statements on the second test?

1. Businesses and farms should operate without govt. subsidies.
2. People are better off with free trade than with tariffs.
3. Minimum wage laws cause unemployment. Repeal them.
4. End taxes. Pay for services with user fees.
5. All foreign aid should be privately funded.
 

flavio

Banned
flavio said:
Ardsgaine wrote:
Oh, for crying out loud... no restaurant is going to stay in business poisoning its customers



Yes, but they could stay in business if they only have roaches crawling through your food.

flavio said:
I also think people deserve to expect some safety when they go to eat instead taking a chance every time they go to a new restaraunt. I've worked at a couple restaraunts that I wouldn't eat at myself once I saw the conditions. The only time they even got anywhere close to acceptable was when they knew an inspector was coming. If nobody ever checked on them they would have been downright disgusting.

flavio said:
Ardsgaine wrote:
"We know all that needs to be known about preserving and processing meat for a restaurant, and we'll tell you exactly what you need to do."



It's just a matter of scientific fact. I think there's been research on the subject a few times.

quote:
Those aren't guidelines, they're laws. If you break them, you get fined. If you fail to pay the fine, you go to jail.



Good, if you put people at risk, there should be repurcussions.
flavio said:
Ardsgain wrote:
I don't care about harm to air and water.



This is where the Ayn Rand theories really start to show the crazy. Living things happen to use this air and drink this water. Do I really need to make that connection?

If you don't see how an inanimate object can be harmed then go run your car into a wall at speed and tell me how it works afterwards. You need to take care of automobile so it will continue to take you places, you need to take care of the world around you so it remains livable.

Just a few of the points that you haven't responded to.
 

flavio

Banned
flavio said:
Ardsgain said:
I guess time will tell whose theory is more suited for a fantasy world. We're the freest country on earth, and also the richest. I don't think that's a coincidence.



What are you saying? We're the freest and richest while NONE of your theories are in place and that's no coincidence?

Are you trying to prove yourself wrong there?

Geezus, there's still more than this, but I'll stop here for now.
 

Ardsgaine

New Member
Is that your laundry list Flavio? I'm sorry, I only argue in terms of fundamental principles. There are an infinite number of concrete situations and possibilities that you can throw at me, and I'm not going to sit here and try to shoot them down one by one. They're all covered by the same principle: it's immoral to initiate the use of physical force regardless of whether it's done by a private citizen or a government. That's the beginning and end of my argument. If you want to argue, argue against that.
 

flavio

Banned
Well, i've addressed your points one by one. If you don't care to return the favor, I'm going to assume you don't have a good response.

You want fundemental principal only? How about....

flavio said:
What are you saying? We're the freest and richest while NONE of your theories are in place and that's no coincidence?

Are you trying to prove yourself wrong there?

flavio said:
Ardsgain said:
I don't care about harm to air and water.

This is where the Ayn Rand theories really start to show the crazy. Living things happen to use this air and drink this water. Do I really need to make that connection?

If you don't see how an inanimate object can be harmed then go run your car into a wall at speed and tell me how it works afterwards. You need to take care of automobile so it will continue to take you places, you need to take care of the world around you so it remains livable.

....try those and I'll give you the next ones in smaller doses.
 

Ardsgaine

New Member
flavio said:
What are you saying? We're the freest and richest while NONE of your theories are in place and that's no coincidence?

Are you trying to prove yourself wrong there?

Okay... this one I'm going to address. I ignored it before because it was a completely specious argument-- no, to call it an argument is a compliment. It's simply FALSE to say that none of my theories are in place in the US. We are rich to the extent that we are a free country, and we are free to the extent that we limit government to the protection of individual rights. Countries that are less free than us have shitty economies. Countries that are totally unfree are cesspools of poverty.
 

flavio

Banned
Ardsgaine said:
flavio said:
What are you saying? We're the freest and richest while NONE of your theories are in place and that's no coincidence?

Are you trying to prove yourself wrong there?

Okay... this one I'm going to address. I ignored it before because it was a completely specious argument-- no, to call it an argument is a compliment. It's simply FALSE to say that none of my theories are in place in the US. We are rich to the extent that we are a free country, and we are free to the extent that we limit government to the protection of individual rights. Countries that are less free than us have shitty economies. Countries that are totally unfree are cesspools of poverty.

The point is that your ideas of getting rid of safety regulations, health inspections, environmental regulations, and public roads ARE NOT IN EFFECT....while I am defending all of the above which ARE IN EFFECT.

So for you to say we are the richest and freest country in the world is no coincidence would support the ideas that ARE IN EFFECT not the ideas that ARE NOT IN EFFECT.

See where I'm going with this?
 

Ardsgaine

New Member
flavio said:
you need to take care of the world around you so it remains livable.

So the way you know that the world has been harmed is because it is in some way unlivable? Then that translates back into doing harm to people. The wrong of the act isn't because it alters or "damages" nature per se, it's because the effect on nature is that people end up being harmed, which is precisely what I said before. As far as I'm concerned, this counts as answering the same point twice.
 

Ardsgaine

New Member
flavio said:
The point is that your ideas of getting rid of safety regulations, health inspections, environmental regulations, and public roads ARE NOT IN EFFECT....while I am defending all of the above which ARE IN EFFECT.

So for you to say we are the richest and freest country in the world is no coincidence would support the ideas that ARE IN EFFECT not the ideas that ARE NOT IN EFFECT.

See where I'm going with this?

I see where you're trying to go with it, I just don't see it ever getting you there. We know for a fact that countries with greater state interference in their economies are poorer, so how can you possibly argue that state interference in the economy is the CAUSE of our prosperity?

We know that people who eat good diets will enjoy better health. That doesn't mean that someone who eats well otherwise, but has a bowl of ice cream after dinner every night will keel over and die. What would you say to him, though, if he claimed that the ice cream was the cause of his good health, rather than the good diet he was following otherwise? He makes about as much sense as someone who looks at a predominately capitalist country and claims that it's the government regulations that make it rich.
 

flavio

Banned
You said...

Ardsgain said:
I guess time will tell whose theory is more suited for a fantasy world. We're the freest country on earth, and also the richest. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Seeing how the ideas of yours that we are discussing are not currently implemented, what coincidence are you referring to? Where were you trying to go with it and how did you expect it to get you there?

Ardsgaine said:
flavio said:
you need to take care of the world around you so it remains livable.

So the way you know that the world has been harmed is because it is in some way unlivable? Then that translates back into doing harm to people. The wrong of the act isn't because it alters or "damages" nature per se, it's because the effect on nature is that people end up being harmed, which is precisely what I said before. As far as I'm concerned, this counts as answering the same point twice.

Let's say we didn't have any pollution restrictions in a certain city. Now in this city there are 20 different factories, 19 of which are responsible and do not pollute. One of them though dumps ridiculous amounts of toxins in the air and water as part of their current process. Nobody knows about this until years later when some serious health problems develope in the community, some research is done, and the toxins are finally identified.

Now the city needs to prove who dumped these toxins in their air and water and get them to take some responsibility. What if the factory has since changed their process and isn't polluting anymore? What if they aren't in business anymore? What if it is just impossible to tell which factory they came from in the first place?

The damage would be done and it could be a monumental task to hold anyone responsible for it.

-------------------------------------------------------

As for health regulations in restaraunts goes, I have worked in few. Two of them had some serious cleanliness problems. One of them had a serious roach problem and the owner was a cheap bastard and wouldn't really do anything about it. Roaches did get in the food from time to time and it took an inspector threating to shut him down before he finally acted.

I believe that if there weren't regulations and inspections that the entire restaraunt industry would be hurt severely. If people could count on some sort of standard being met I doubt they would go out to eat very much. Personally I would limit it to dire emergencies.

------------------------------------------------------

Now how about these private roads you speak of? So we give everyone the ability to buy up their own stretch of road right? I'm picturing vast numbers of toll booths, with all the direct routes fetching premium prices in order to pass through. Maybe a few blocks downtown owned by Starbucks with a two Latte minimum.

Now if you owned a bridge or something you could get $50 a car out of the people that really needed to get to the other side.

Then we could have each owner setting up their own rules of the road with them changing every few miles or even blocks. But how are we going to enforce the rules? What do you do about people who just fly through red lights and stop signs or whatever the owners decide to put up?

Then what about accidents? How would you determine fault? I've heard that accidents in parking lots are normally ruled "no fault" simply because it's private property.
 
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