Negative reinforcement

[Gonz]

For centuries, our forefathers (and mothers) have used "negative reinforcement" to alter a childs behavior. Spankings, getting yelled at, groundings, slaps upside the head, etc. With exceptions, we & they all turned out okay & our assorted countries grew & ran smoothly.

In the last generation we've been alerted to change our collective thinking. NR is bad. What a child needs is "positive reinforcement". It's less stressful. It creates an environment (damn I hate that word in this context) of harmony (that one too). When a child misbehaves, don't react. Ignore. When a child behaves correctly, praise. This will teach a child that love & understanding comes from doing good.

Okay, it looks great on paper (or screeen, as the case may be). Seems likely to work. Makes perfect sense. One problem.

Since PR has replaced NR, there have been more violent incidences with the under 30 crowd than any time in history. Columbine & similar incidents didn't occur. Mass killings in our cities was nowhere near the epidemic is has become. Rape, homicide & assaults are all up with the teen set.


Coincidence? I think not. You?

 

[a13antichrist]

You need both. Punish the bad, reward the good.

 

[ris]

i was one who left the door open to the use of spankings etc with my kids when i had them. i felt that parents had to at least have the option in the armoury. but i watched a very interesting programme where a child psychologist took 3 extremely disruptive families who already used nr without success and used more passive means [mainly forms of bribery and gentle competition] to get to the kids. the results with one family of 4 boys in particular was srtiking and it's made me reconsider.

i think that parents still use groundings and shouting at their kids, its the direct violence toward the child that has been on the wane recently in beatings and spankings. i don't think that the reduction in spankings alone are necessarily to blame for all of youth crime and thier result on society.

i look at what 10yo boys music is today [korn, mm, linkin park...], the computer games they play [seen more than a few play gta3, full gore ut...], mass advertising aimed at children. the entire culture of youth has changed dramatically.

 

[Professur]

And what, pray tell, do you do when there's no good behavior to reinforce?

 

[a13antichrist]

Beat the shit out of them 24hrs a day..

Actually though, while I think of it, Negative reinforcement actually refers to rewarding as well: Postive reinforcement is adding something good (praise, reward, privilege) whereas negative reinforcement refers to the removal of something not-so-good (restriction, previous imposed penalty). Then you have Postive and Negative punishment also, which should be self-explanatory. These four make up what is known as Operant Conditioning (heh check that out, my Major in Psychology turned out to be useful for something after all.. ).

 

[greenfreak]

I agree with a13, it shouldn't be one or the other, but rather both. I guess the trick is knowing which to use and when.

I don't have kids so I don't have much to go by here. But when I was doing things that were wrong as a kid, I got yelled at, punished, threatened that I was getting the belt that hung by a hook in the kitchen (never got it but the fear was there)... I guess we had an absence of positive reinforcement now that I think about it. Three kids turned out fine, one was a nightmare and still is to this day, with the same treatment of all of us.

My sister is a control freak and is constantly yelling at the kids, threatening them with varying forms of punishment. There is a really uptight atmosphere in her house and no one relaxes unless she's not there. She lacks any kind of outward affection for the older kids and favors the younger ones so her treatment of them is inconsistant. Her oldest is starting to rebel already and getting an attitude that I'm worried will become worse as she enters her teens (she's 11). The repression is what I think is going to get them in the end like it did with me. As a child, I was quiet and reserved. When I turned 16, I kinda went wild and it lasted about 5 years. In the end, my personality went to the other extreme; I was a brash, outspoken bitch. Now at 30, I'm finding a happy medium betwen them. (or at least trying )

 

[outside looking in]

I received spankings by father, mother, and teachers on occasion.

I don't know of anyone who turned out any better than I.

It will certainly be an option I will leave open when I have children.

 

[flavio]

Hitting children is a pathetic attempt at parenting.

 

[Shadowfax]

Hitting children is a pathetic attempt at parenting.

there's a difference between hitting and giving a kid a correctional slap. i'm glad my parents did when i was young. no physical damage at all, but hell, i definately learned exactly how far i could go.
on other occasions my parents used "PR", in situations where it was appropriate. on other occasions a good slap on the ass definately had more effect.

hell, i said to them more than once that i was glad that they did that. my neighbours used the psychological approach, explaining and reasoning with 6 yr olds why they shouldn't hit their parents or give them a kick against the legs.
they are now two highly annoying, aggresive fucked up 16 yr olds, hanging around stirring shit everywhere.

 

[Shadowfax]

Since PR has replaced NR, there have been more violent incidences with the under 30 crowd than any time in history. Columbine & similar incidents didn't occur. Mass killings in our cities was nowhere near the epidemic is has become. Rape, homicide & assaults are all up with the teen set.


Coincidence? I think not. You?

gonz, where do you get that information? it is a logical consequence, at least in the way i see it, but i'm interested on what that information is based

 

[flavio]

there's a difference between hitting and giving a kid a correctional slap.

Certianly, there's various levels of force that can be used in physical violence. It's best to avoid all of it with children.

my neighbours used the psychological approach, explaining and reasoning with 6 yr olds why they shouldn't hit their parents or give them a kick against the legs.
they are now two highly annoying, aggresive fucked up 16 yr olds, hanging around stirring shit everywhere.

Who knows what's going on with your neighbors. I do know the best behaved children I know don't ever have a hand laid on them.

 

[Shadowfax]

ok, this is looking at things from different points of view...
not much to debate about at this point.
good that not ALL kids that didn't get a correctional slap turned out as crappy as those little bastards.

 

[PT]

Hitting children is a pathetic attempt at parenting.

Said that man with no kids, obviously.



Spare the rod, spoil the child.

I'm sorry, I don't think that beating your children is ok, but it's parents like you that have created the unruly, disrespecting, ungrateful, stupid little brats that are infesting this world now.

 

[a13antichrist]

100% in agreement with Shadowfax & PT.

 

[PT]

100% in agreement with Shadowfax & PT.

* Falls over dead.

 

[flavio]

Said that man with no kids, obviously.



Spare the rod, spoil the child.

I'm sorry, I don't think that beating your children is ok, but it's parents like you that have created the unruly, disrespecting, ungrateful, stupid little brats that are infesting this world now.

Sorry you're wrong. The best behaved children I know have not had violence used on them as a method of parenting. Violence can be an effective means of behavior control but the psychological damage that comes as a side effect is not worth it in my opinion.

This doesn't mean that a child has to be spoiled and get their way whenever they want. There are other equally effective means of parenting that might take a little more thought and effort but don't have the mental side effects.

But if hitting kids with a rod is the only way you can think of not to spoil them then swing away.

 

[chcr]

* Falls over dead.

Hey, what kind of beer will they serve at the wake???

Seriously, I'm in favor of public flogging for things like drunk driving and shoplifting. It would certainly be inconsistent to be against corporal punishment for children. If it's not cruel and unusual, it isn't punishment. I agree theat people can go overboard with corporal punishment of a child, but I feell like the children that receive none and still turn out respectful and polite are the exception rather than the rule. I grew up when that was just an accepted part of raising children. I probably didn't get spanked ten times growing up, but I knew if I fucked up bad enough (and got caught), I would.

 

[PT]

I'll tell you what. Why don't you come back here after having a few, and using your "Time-Out" approach, and then lecture me about how I punish my kids. The rod statement is an old saying, what I actually use is a pine paddle, about 18" long, with a nicely countoured handle. It provides a nice sharp strike with no damage. My mother-in-law is an ex-social worker too, she owns one as well, and has seen several families where your type of punishment is used, and several where mine is. You are the one that is wrong here.

Now, given the fact that the most you KNOW are not punished physically, you must not know too many kids, or have not known these kids when they reached their teenage years when they are given some responsiblity. The main problem with positive reinforcement and time-outs is that the kids don't really learn the consequences of their behavior. Mine do.

 

[flavio]

Here's some research on the subject of physical punishment on children.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/familydevelopment/components/7266a.html

Scroll down to E. Consequences of Physical Punishment: A Quick Literature Review .

 

[flavio]

While conducting the meta-analysis, which included 62 years of collected data, Gershoff looked for associations between parental use of corporal punishment and 11 child behaviors and experiences, including several in childhood (immediate compliance, moral internalization, quality of relationship with parent, and physical abuse from that parent), three in both childhood and adulthood (mental health, aggression, and criminal or antisocial behavior) and one in adulthood alone (abuse of own children or spouse).

Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences. Ten of the associations were negative such as with increased child aggression and antisocial behavior. The single desirable association was between corporal punishment and increased immediate compliance on the part of the child.

http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html

American Psychological Association