Prop 19: Marijuana Legalization Gets its Number in California

[valkyrie]

Ain't Nobody's Business...
An illuminating read. I recommend it.

<snippety snip>

I believe you are right about most consensual crimes, and this is why vise usually ends up in the hands of organized crime (see my thread on Mexico's Drug War).

 

[valkyrie]

While I completely agree with the premise, like it or not, it is crime. Anyone committing these crimes needs to be treated as a criminal. However, just as soon as the laws can be changed, let it be so.

As long as teh other side understands, those willing to undertake these freedoms do so at their own risk. No tax money shall be spent to cure, fix or feed them in their failings.

So same as alcohol?

Spike, I'm pretty sure this is what he's saying. It doesn't matter if it's pot or liquor. If someone becomes addicted then the tax payers shouldn't have to bail them out.

 

[spike]

Spike, I'm pretty sure this is what he's saying. It doesn't matter if it's pot or liquor. If someone becomes addicted then the tax payers shouldn't have to bail them out.

I'm fine with that, There's seems to be a reluctance to treat marijuana like alcohol in this thread even though alcohol is far more likely to be addictive and far more likely to cause health problems.

The simple answer is to just treat it like alcohol.

 

[valkyrie]

I'm fine with that, There's seems to be a reluctance to treat marijuana like alcohol in this thread even though alcohol is far more likely to be addictive and far more likely to cause health problems.

The simple answer is to just treat it like alcohol.

Alcohol addiction, as well as drug addiction, food addiction, gambling addiction and sex addiction, are caused by the mental benefit the individual receives and the inability of the individual to moderate. Some people have an addictive personality. Some things are more addicting because of the benefit the brain perceives. Alcohol and marijuana are about the same. Tobacco is probably more addicting (I know more smokers than tokers), but I don't smoke tobacco so I couldn't say. I only know friends and co-workers who have attempted to quit on several occasions and failed each time.

I'm not sure why it has been hard for some to admit that addiction is addiction, whether it's alcohol or anything else. The words are in the post but poster just doesn't come out and say it. I'm not sure why. It wouldn't be admitting they were wrong about anything. It's just a fact. Addiction is addiction.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Addiction is much more than simple "will", there are many profound measurable physiological events.

cigarettes, alcohol, pot, sugar all different, none of them are the same. Heroin is the least damaging to the human body, so we should make Heroin legal? (if the user accepts 100% of the responsibility, Id be OK with it. I don't want to support your habit)

 

[spike]

Withdrawal: Presence and severity of characteristic withdrawal symptoms.

Reinforcement: A measure of the substance's ability, in human and animal tests, to get users
to take it again and again, and in preference to other substances.

Tolerance: How much of the substance is needed to satisfy increasing cravings for it, and the level of stable need that is eventually reached.

Dependence: How difficult it is for the user to quit, the relapse rate, the percentage of people who eventually become dependent, the rating users give their own need for the substance
and the degree to which the substance will be used in the face of evidence that it causes harm.

Intoxication: Though not usually counted as a measure of addiction in itself, the level of intoxication is associated with addiction and increases the personal and social damage a substance may do.

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/28

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Learn to read.

Heroin is the least damaging to the human body,
Providing you don't kill yourself, Heroin does the least physiological damage to the human body of the FIVE of the drugs you list.

But feel free to continue to be an idiot. Carry on.

 

[spike]

I don't know why you're trippin'.

I was responding to Valk when she said "Alcohol and marijuana are about the same. Tobacco is probably more addicting" and adding some more info to the topic.

Sorry i didn't pay enough attention to you. That was quite the tantrum you threw there. Big red fonts and trolling.

Ok, I'll try to see what your point was. You say Heroin is the the least damaging to the human body. Are you saying that's the only measurement we should look at and make heroin legal while outlawing the most physically damaging?

Morphine and heroin have interesting properties but I would think "physically damaging" is only one measurement.

Here's some other info...

 

[spike]

Are you saying that's the only measurement we should look at and make heroin legal while outlawing the most physically damaging?

 

[ResearchMonkey]

No, if I had to pick one point to make it would be that you really don't understand much about physiology/pharmacology, biochemical functions or relationships of the human creature.

I think, just as in politics, you buy into shit written by people with utopia dreams and not based in reality.

Must be blissful to be you, smoke up. -- do you have medical card buddy?

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Are you saying that's the only measurement we should look at and make heroin legal while outlawing the most physically damaging?

I've said nothing of the sort. I was just going off of your: Dope is like alcohol.

Fact is, there is almost nothing in common. One is Lipophilic the other is hydrophilic. -- Of course this means they almost exactly the same.

 

[spike]

No, if I had to pick one point to make it would be that you really don't understand much about physiology/pharmacology, biochemical functions or relationships of the human creature.

From this thread it is obvious that the one lacking any of this knowledge is you. You have been completely unable to make one coherent point on the topic.

Were you ever going to go somewhere with this Heroin thing you threw the tantrum about?

 

[ResearchMonkey]

My point? You are saying pot is like alcohol so it should be legal, which it isn't unless you happen to be dope-smoking idiot. But using your logic that pot less harmful that alcohol, I was saying heroin is less harmful than pot so it too should be legal.

LOL, If I have it wrong, ...well, lets just say there will be real world problems.

Roll another joint buddy.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

It's been fun spike but I have to get back to work being wrong.

 

[spike]

My point? You are saying pot is like alcohol so it should be legal, which it isn't unless you happen to be dope-smoking idiot. But using your logic that pot less harmful that alcohol, I was saying heroin is less harmful than pot so it too should be legal.

You'd have to be smoking meth to think that pot is more harmful than alcohol.

Herion is not less harmful than pot. You claimed that it was less damaging to the human body (without any evidence but we'll skip that). I pointed out that "damaging to the human body" is only one measurement to consider and supplied a multitude of others.

Heroin is far more likely to be lethal (seems like that is damaging to the human body) and addictive. The intoxication level also can be far higher than pot. Regardless, some countries have legalized heroin.

Now back to Prop 19 though. The question is though, given the facts, what rational reason do you have for making a bigger deal out of pot than alcohol?

 

[ResearchMonkey]

One last time...

Note yo Spike: notice I added the caveat: if you don;t kill yourself (heroin). Most heroin OD's are from the variance of stregth of the street heroin, sometimes even cut with fentanyl (a common cause of OD). If heroin were legal and regulated the OD rate would be much smaller. It is a fact, herion is the least damaging drug of abuse in arena of physical damage.

About alcohol and pot:

alcohol is hydrophilic, meaning it permeates the cell walls of your entire body. It will enter the knee joint as well flow the BloodBrainBarrier In a matter of just hours, your body will remove the alcohol from you system and life goes on.

Pot is lipophilic and stored in the fatty tissues, your brain is 90% fat. The delta9 is stored in your brain and will continue to affect you cognitive abilities for an extended period of time. Yuo body may clean the blood, but you still have it stored in brain causing problems, specifically....

THe cognitive impairment from long term dope smoking is not as benign as you think it is, even if you smoke just a few joint a week.

THe hippocampus stores information for short term memory which is eventually transferred to long-term memory. The problem is that cannibinoids are structurally similar to anandamide, the neurotransmitter that captures your experiences as they occur and lay them into your short term memory in the hippocampus.

So when you flood your brain with delta9 huge chunks of you life go missing as the it interferes with process of capturing memory. You now have unrecoverable data of your own life that has been lost forever. -- And if you deny this fact, you're either kidding yourself or not from this planet.

THC also artificially stimulates a part of the brain called the amygdala which a region of the brain that assigns novelty or emotional significance to objects and ideas someone encounter in their environment. -- This is significant to you. Potheads always think they have some unnoticed internalized streak of brilliance, they are flattered by their ideas no matter how insane that thought might be.

While you might not feel high anymore, the fact is you still have some real hang-over problems; just like alcohol although it involves a different set of neuroreceptors.
Wwhen you drink booze, its the gabba receptors, with pot its the anandamide receptors that are affected. -- Again, you deny that you are negitively affected by this, .... you would be wrong.

It common knowledge that pot has a marked effect on motor function performance and complex task. This will last for at least several days for a casual user, much longer for a chronic user.

So may while you may not feel high ...you are still suffering from the effects for an extended period of time. -- It explains your repaeting of "trolling", "making-shit-up" and consistent low levels of cognitive understanding in threads.

About meth -- the usual problem with long-term meth users is a reduction of neuro transmitter production; Dopamine, Serotonin and norepinephrine of those we know about. It takes up to ~6 months to recover production to pre-use levels. Although, sometimes people have long term issues due to damage to the alpha2 GABA receptors.

But feel free to repeat that 'alcohol is worse than pot therefore should be legal', ...because you would put to account that both pot and alcohol are worse than Heroin ...therefor heroine should be legal.

Again I'll repeat:::: they should all be legal, as far I'm concerned, ....providing the individuals accepts 100% of the responsibility of their actions. That means accepting the failures of life leaving you stupid, uncompetitive and hungry under some bridge dying of Hep-B or AID's..

Takes some time and reconcile the above facts.

Smoke pot, become Paris smart.

 

[2minkey]

who paid for your rehab?

 

[ResearchMonkey]

who paid for your rehab?

I did, out of my own pocket. I sold my 1st house to pay for it, a 3bed, 2bath house I built myself. But that was back in the early 90's.

I'm sorry Spike. The Prof says interacting with you makes me stupider'er-dumber'er and its reflecting in my quality of my work again today. The quality of my work goes down significantly when I discuss even simple matters with you. -- If she can spot the ~time where I looked at your postings........ I believe it to be reasonable proof that any exchange of ideas with you makes one dumber'er. -- I already knew this but ounce its pointed out in a clear manner by another reasonable person, I feel I must go back to just laughing and playing with the village's one and only special person.


Keep smoking that dope and become half of what you could be.

 

[spike]

alcohol is hydrophilic, meaning it permeates the cell walls of your entire body. It will enter the knee joint as well flow the BloodBrainBarrier In a matter of just hours, your body will remove the alcohol from you system and life goes on.

Ah, so your entire remaining argument is based on the duration of effects as to why one should be treated differently than the other. That's pretty simple to wrap up then.

We've already established that alcohol is like to have serious debilitating effects even days after drinking while marijuana doesn't have chance at competing with that kind of blow to productivity.

It looks like your "duration" argument is supporting alcohol being the worse drug and makes a good point for passing Prop 19. I'm glad we have this setlled now.

But feel free to repeat that 'alcohol is worse than pot therefore should be legal', ...because you would put to account that both pot and alcohol are worse than Heroin ...therefor heroine should be legal.

The only way you could see pot and alcohol being worse than heroin is if you naively only looked at one narrow measurement. That would be silly. You'd have to blindly all other facts.

But hey, maybe I'll support your "legalize heroin" initiative anyway.

Again I'll repeat:::: they should all be legal, as far I'm concerned, ....providing the individuals accepts 100% of the responsibility of their actions. That means accepting the failures of life

Right. Same as alcohol.

I'm sorry Spike. The Prof says interacting with you makes me stupider'er-dumber'er and its reflecting in my quality of my work again today.

I realize failing to be able to support your arguments in any effective way has to be frustrating for you but I didn't realize this frustration was seeping into the rest of your life and your relationship with Prof (I didn't even realize you two were a couple).

Maybe you should have him take away your computer for awhile or direct you towards some sites where nobody will question the things you make up.

 

[Professur]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-11299938

Totally harmless.