SCotUS to hear arguments in Heller case this week

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
What was that supposed to explain? You think when Jefferson said "no free man" he meant just adult men? What about adult women?

You were considered an adult at that time when you sprouted tour first pubic hair. John Quincy accompanied Francis Dana on a mission to St. Petersburg, Russia, to gain recognition of the new republic when he was only fourteen.
 

spike

New Member
I gave you a well researched article on the subject. You asked and I responded. What would it take to satisfy you?

Actually we were talking about shootouts in the 1800's and you gave me an article that jumped to conclusions on robbery in the wild west. I wouldn't call it well researched or on the subject.

We are talking about men who kept a brace of working cannon as lawn decorations. They also recognized citizenship from birth.

And?

You were considered an adult at that time when you sprouted tour first pubic hair. John Quincy accompanied Francis Dana on a mission to St. Petersburg, Russia, to gain recognition of the new republic when he was only fourteen.

I sprouted pubic hair and a wicked handlebar mustache when I was four. However the law didn't consider me an adult until I was 18. I'm not sure what your point was about that or John Quincy.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Actually we were talking about shootouts in the 1800's and you gave me an article that jumped to conclusions on robbery in the wild west. I wouldn't call it well researched or on the subject.

The entire article was about the myth of the wild west mentality. In reality, there were few crimes in these towns, including shootouts, despite the stories to the contrary.

I am not denying the existence of shootouts during that century. They were simply not as prevalent as the anti-firearms activists and Hollywood would make you think they were. The media and anti-firearms activists tend to focus on the OK Corral shootout but there were several other shootouts which took far more lives.

Gunfight at Hide Park 6 dead

Mussel Slough Tragedy 8 dead

Going Snake Massacre 22 dead

Four Dead in Five Seconds Gunfight 4 dead


You asked "Any arms imaginable? Anywhere?" I answered. the Founders didn't seem to be concerned about crew-served arms in the hands of the common citizenry.

I sprouted pubic hair and a wicked handlebar mustache when I was four. However the law didn't consider me an adult until I was 18. I'm not sure what your point was about that or John Quincy.

The age of majority was lower back then. The Founders considered a person a full citizen from birth with all of the rights and responsibilities of every other citizen. Age requirements for certain activities are a twentieth century idea.

That was supposed to be John Quincy Adams, fourth president of the united States, but the overwrite got turned on and the Adams part got obliterated. Sorry about that.
 

spike

New Member
The entire article was about the myth of the wild west mentality. In reality, there were few crimes in these towns, including shootouts, despite the stories to the contrary.

The discussion was about shootings in the 1800's. Your article is about only 2 towns in the west who the author says has low crime rates but also gives an indication that they may have been underreported or not tracked well.

That article is hardly relevant to the discussion.

I am not denying the existence of shootouts during that century. They were simply not as prevalent as the anti-firearms activists and Hollywood would make you think they were.

What you need then is info on gun deaths. I'm not sure how many shootings you think Hollywood or anti-firearms people think there were.

You asked "Any arms imaginable? Anywhere?" I answered. the Founders didn't seem to be concerned about crew-served arms in the hands of the common citizenry.

Maybe an answer to the question would have been more appropriate.


The age of majority was lower back then. The Founders considered a person a full citizen from birth with all of the rights and responsibilities of every other citizen.

I'm not sure where your're going with this but I don't think that applied to women, blacks, or Indians.
 

2minkey

bootlicker
spike, unless it refers to something that happened hundreds of years ago that can be referred to like biblical scritpture by the unquestioningly faithful, it's not relevant here. come on, dude, get with the program.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
The discussion was about shootings in the 1800's. Your article is about only 2 towns in the west who the author says has low crime rates but also gives an indication that they may have been underreported or not tracked well.

That article is hardly relevant to the discussion.



What you need then is info on gun deaths. I'm not sure how many shootings you think Hollywood or anti-firearms people think there were.



Maybe an answer to the question would have been more appropriate.




I'm not sure where your're going with this but I don't think that applied to women, blacks, or Indians.

Perhaps you need to re-read POST #8 What I said was SHOOTOUTS not shootings.

I gave you what I was willing to expend in effort for you; which is, by far, much more effort than you would, admittedly, expend for me if the circumstances were reversed.

If this subject means that much to you then I would suggest you start wiith the "Statistical Abstract of the United States".

Good luck in your searches and queries.
 

spike

New Member
What I said was SHOOTOUTS not shootings.

The article was confined to two cities and the part you quoted didn't discuss shootouts. Not that there's much of a point to be made with shootouts.

Like I said, what you need is info on gun geaths. You see that right?

Seems the only point you've made is that the intent of the 2nd Amendment isn't really clear at all.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
The article was confined to two cities and the part you quoted didn't discuss shootouts. Not that there's much of a point to be made with shootouts.

They didn't discuss what didn't happen. There weren't any significant numbers of SHOOTOUTS you know, two guys standing in the street, they draw, one dies ala "Gunsmoke", "Have Gun, Will Travel", et al.

Like I said, what you need is info on gun geaths. You see that right?

And like I said you need to research that yourself if you need that info so badly.

Seems the only point you've made is that the intent of the 2nd Amendment isn't really clear at all.

Gonz posted several quotes HERE by the Founders who wrote the document as to what the intent of the Amendment was. Do you believe that they were wrong about their own intentions when they wrote it? That they lied to themselve? That they had some self doubt as to their intentions?

C'mon, Spike, get real in The Real World.
 

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,338896,00.html

In Second Amendment Case, High Court Majority Appears to Support Individual Right to Own Guns
Tuesday, March 18, 2008

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court appeared ready Tuesday to endorse the view that the Second Amendment gives individuals the right to own guns, but was less clear about whether to retain the District of Columbia's ban on handguns.

The justices were aware of the historic nature of their undertaking, engaging in an extended 98-minute session of questions and answers that could yield the first definition of the meaning of the Second Amendment in its 216 years.

A key justice, Anthony Kennedy, left little doubt about his view when he said early in the proceedings that the Second Amendment gives "a general right to bear arms."

Click here to read FindLaw's case history on the handgun ban.

Several justices were skeptical that the Constitution, if it gives individuals' gun rights, could allow a complete ban on handguns when, as Chief Justice John Roberts pointed out, those weapons are most suited for protection at home.

"What is reasonable about a ban on possession" of handguns?" Roberts asked at one point.

But Justice Stephen Breyer suggested that the District's public safety concerns could be relevant in evaluating its 32-year-old ban on handguns, perhaps the strictest gun control law in the nation.

"Does that make it unreasonable for a city with a very high crime rate...to say no handguns here?" Breyer said.

Solicitor General Paul Clement, the Bush administration's top Supreme Court lawyer, supported the individual right, but urged the justices not to decide the other question. Instead, Clement said the court should allow for reasonable restrictions that allow banning certain types of weapons, including existing federal laws.

He did not take a position on the District law.

The court has not conclusively interpreted the Second Amendment since its ratification in 1791. The basic issue for the justices is whether the amendment protects an individual's right to own guns or whether that right is somehow tied to service in a state militia.

The amendment reads: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

While the arguments raged inside, advocates of gun rights and opponents of gun violence demonstrated outside court Tuesday.

Dozens of protesters mingled with tourists and waved signs saying "Ban the Washington elitists, not our guns" or "The NRA helps criminals and terrorist buy guns."

Members of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence chanted "guns kill" as followers of the Second Amendment Sisters and Maryland Shall Issue.Org shouted "more guns, less crime."

A line to get into the court for the historic arguments began forming two days earlier and extended more than a block by early Tuesday.

The high court's first extensive examination of the Second Amendment since 1939 grew out of challenge to the District's ban.

Anise Jenkins, president of a coalition called Stand Up for Democracy in D.C., defended the district's prohibition on handguns.

"We feel our local council knows what we need for a good standard of life and to keep us safe," Jenkins said.

Genie Jennings, a resident of South Perwick, Maine, and national spokeswoman for Second Amendment Sisters, said the law banning handguns in Washington "is denying individuals the right to defend themselves."

Even if the court determines there is an individual right, the justices still will have to decide whether the District's ban can stand and how to evaluate other gun control laws. This issue has caused division within the Bush administration, with Vice President Dick Cheney taking a harder line than the administration's official position at the court.

The local Washington government argues that its law should be allowed to remain in force whether or not the amendment applies to individuals, although it reads the amendment as intended to allow states to have armed forces.

The City Council that adopted the ban said it was justified because "handguns have no legitimate use in the purely urban environment of the District of Columbia."

Dick Anthony Heller, 65, an armed security guard, sued the District after it rejected his application to keep a handgun at his home for protection. His lawyers say the amendment plainly protects an individual's right.

The last Supreme Court ruling on the topic came in 1939 in U.S. v. Miller, which involved a sawed-off shotgun. Constitutional scholars disagree over what that case means but agree it did not squarely answer the question of individual versus collective rights.

Roberts said at his confirmation hearing that the correct reading of the Second Amendment was "still very much an open issue."
 

spike

New Member
They didn't discuss what didn't happen. There weren't any significant numbers of SHOOTOUTS you know, two guys standing in the street, they draw, one dies ala "Gunsmoke", "Have Gun, Will Travel", et al.

Because it wasn't covered in the article it didn't happen? Why on earth would you even focus on that type of shooting in those two cities as proof of anything in the first place?

And like I said you need to research that yourself if you need that info so badly.

I don't need that info, you need it before you'll have a point.


Gonz posted several quotes

No shit. That's why I posted "Not so much. Any arms imaginable? Anywhere? 3 year olds too?" because those questions weren't addressed in the quotes. Making their intent unclear.

Oh and stop the childish attempts at insults. Don't you see how tired people get of it?
 
Top