Summer gas?

Discussion in 'The Real World' started by GrandCaravanSE, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. GrandCaravanSE

    GrandCaravanSE Active Member

    WTF is the term Summer Gas, sound like a load of crap to me. It is just another way to raise the prices at the pump. I didn't even hear this term until a few years ago. I heard that it is to pollute less?, so it is better to pollute more in the winter?
     
  2. Gonz

    Gonz molṑn labé Staff Member

    It's governmental control over the oil companies. The federal government requires certain air quality measures & imposes such on the oil companies.

    Don;t look to Shell, look at your legislators
     
  3. GrandCaravanSE

    GrandCaravanSE Active Member

    But why is it ok to pollute more during the winter? why is this term used more of an excuse then an answer? plus Summer/Winter gas terms never existed until a few years ago. your probably older then me did you ever haer about Summer/Winter gas, and if you did , did it effect the price as much as it does now? also i am pretty sure we should still be paying less considering that gas is right around $40 a barrel.
     
  4. chcr

    chcr Too cute for words

    Other way around, dude.
     
  5. Frodo

    Frodo Member

    Yes, I remember when the CEO of Exxon marched into the EPA buildng with a gun and demanded that they force him to shutdown his refineries twice a year so he could have the logistical challenge of trying to make sure that the winter gas was used up before the Summer gas was mandated at different times for different parts of the country.

    Seriously, do really think that the Oil companies pushed for that administrative regulation?
     
  6. Gonz

    Gonz molṑn labé Staff Member

    :confuse2:

    Explain, please.
     
  7. catocom

    catocom Well-Known Member

    Actually gas should be cheaper in the summer months to compensate.
    The heat expands the gas, so you don't get as much when it's summer.

    I don't know the temps, and ratios atm.

    Some around here were looking at pumps that adjusted, but renewable is in play now.
     
  8. jimpeel

    jimpeel Well-Known Member

    The terms "summer gas" and "winter gas" are incorrect terms used by the media. The correct terms are "summer blend" and "winter blend".

    Gasoline actually comes out of the refineries in its pure form except for that which will be used in the local market. The gasoline that is piped to other localities is raw gas with no additives. The additives for certain areas are then added at the local level prior to distribution. It would be ridiculous to blend gas for the Idaho market in Los Angeles and then pump it through special pipelines dedicated to the Idaho market. Raw gas is blended in Idaho to meet the state air quality regulations.

    Most of the gas pipelines running throughout the United States run underground along the railroad rights of way. Remember that great conflagration in San Bernardino several years ago when a train coming off of the Cajon Pass derailed and took out the gas pipeline? It then exploded and took out all of the surrounding houses.

    If you want to see what the engineer saw on that day, watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vwK6FybjOo
     
  9. Gonz

    Gonz molṑn labé Staff Member

    I've never figured out why they don't use one clean blend for all 50 (or at least the contiguous 48)
     
  10. jimpeel

    jimpeel Well-Known Member

    State's "rights". Every state has its own clean air standards and they dictate to the petroleum industry what they will sell within their borders. California is the worst.

    By the way, the only time you will feel any difference in your car's performance, as the seasons change, is when the blends change and the two different blends are mixed in the tanks of the stations and in your tank.
     
  11. Gonz

    Gonz molṑn labé Staff Member

    My point is, why not use California blends elsewhere? We ran our vehicles on Cali fuel for years & years without issue. Wouldn't it make more sense to use the cleanest version available? What harm can come from Calif unleaded being pumped to, say, Kansas?
     
  12. catocom

    catocom Well-Known Member

    jim, I heard the ceo there say today that they've already begun the NG conversions.:beerbang:
     
  13. jimpeel

    jimpeel Well-Known Member

    Define "there".

    Wal-Mart is going to CNG for their new truck fleet but they will quickly find out that it is not as fuel efficient. The trucks will cost ~40% more; they won't get as good mileage; they will need special fuel not available everywhere; they will not have the load carrying capacity; they will need lower geared, higher revving transmissions and differentials; they will need special maintenance facilities and mechanics.
     
  14. spike

    spike New Member

    Fixed that for you.

    Also


    http://engineering.suite101.com/article.cfm/ngv_natural_gas_vehicles
     
  15. jimpeel

    jimpeel Well-Known Member

    NG is a petroleum based gas which, when burned, releases GW gases. Cleaner? Yes. Non-polluting? No.

    If NG reduces CO2 by 20% but has only 80% of the output of gasoline then you have a zero sum gain.

    I'll look that up and get back with you.
     
  16. spike

    spike New Member

    Nobody said they didn't pollute. Looks like a pretty good alernative though and we don't have to rely on foreign countries for the fuel.
     
  17. jimpeel

    jimpeel Well-Known Member

    Okay. I have found the numbers and here they are.

    One U.S gallon of gasoline contains 125,000 btus of energy.

    One U.S gallon of LNG contains 90,800 btus of energy.

    LNG has 28% less energy than gasoline or only 72% of the energy output of gasoline.

    If the LNG creates 20% less CO2 than gasoline but requires 1.38 times the amount to do the same work then the 80% of CO2 that they do create multiplied by the 1.38 times would come to 110.4% of gasoline. The 20% figure given at your link was tailpipe emissions but the CNG would have to create 1.38 times as much of that 80% output.

    You may check my numbers if you wish.

    SOURCE
     
  18. spike

    spike New Member

    What if the NG vehicle creates 20% less CO2 than gas doing the same amount of work?

    You made an assumption there that the 20% was based on burning the same amount of fuel and not driving the same amount of miles.
     
  19. jimpeel

    jimpeel Well-Known Member

    Sorry. I realized that my numbers left out the very important aspect of time used. I recrunched them and edited the post. Sorry for any inconvenience.

    The figures given at your link were for tailpipe emissions which would be 80% of what would come from a gasoline engine at the same specifications. The work being produced is a figure of power and time in which the work is produced. The time would be 1.38 times the gas figures because the CNG engine would have to run 1.38 times as long as the gasoline engine to produce the same amount of work at the same power output.
     
  20. jimpeel

    jimpeel Well-Known Member

    Anyway, I gotta get some sleep. Been sick for two days so we'll talk tomorrow.

    Good night.
     

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