The Homosexual Debate

Thulsa Doom

New Member
Gato_Solo said:
This I gotta see...could you list them, please?

BTW...I still say that homosexuality is more choice than genetics.

well... coincidentally enough i JUST answered a question like this on another message board earlier today so instead of writing it all out again Im just gonna be lazy and copy and paste here if you dont mind:

The first thing we need to remember is that homosexual behavior occurs in nature among many many animals. Its not simply a human phenomenon. And there seem to be a bunch of different reasons for its occurrence in nature ranging from male-male bonding to pecking order establishment to gene inhibiting mimicry behavior (pretending to be a female so as to limit other males of their mating success) to a bunch of other things.

In humans we need to keep in mind that for a huge amount of our existence we lived in nomadic tribes in which males spent a LOT of the season together in cooperation apart from the females and the females spent a lot of time together in cooperation apart from the males. There was no job at the mill back then so the concept of living in a “traditional” nuclear family where you all lived happily under one roof and called your kid “beaver” didn’t exist. So it would certainly make sense that extremely close knit kin connections were very important to the survival of the whole group. Those males who had more of a natural propensity to bond closely with other males might do better in the long run in a world where relying on each other and working closely and comfortably with each other could mean the difference between life and death. Same deal with the womens. Close bonding with other females could mean better pooling of resources in child rearing and food gathering. We know that a male-female sexual bonding is to the benefit of the group since emotional attachment can foster care taking and protection instincts so in the absence of year round male-female sexual bonding its certainly conceivable that female-female sexual bonding could be of a benefit in the same way. So those tribes who had individuals with these genes would be at a benefit and you would see homosexuals again and again in the population. Which you do.

Furthermore, there are those individuals in a population who because they aren’t dominant don’t get to pass on their genes because they never get in a position to breed successfully so it would be to their benefit to help with the offspring of their tribe at least by playing the role of a “non traditional nurterer” if you will. In that way it would be better to be gay then to be a heterosexual with no chance of passing on your genes. Thus another possibility for a reoccurring percentage of homosexuals in human populations.

There is a more controversial notion that perhaps being gay is physiologically intrinsic with other positive survival aspects that humans in a tribe need to better survive (in other words, we really need a lot of home decorators and hair stylests to compliment the macho guys out catching mammoths and mastadons. this combination makes for a highly succesful tribe). Don’t know so much about this last one but its interesting to think about.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
Paul said:
the fact that they are not deviating from there (sic) standard behaviour,

Wow, nice move. Slip it in, almost unnoticed, quiet & easy, just like that. May we re-phrase that to "the fact that they are not deviating from the standard behaviour..." a statement which would be wildly incorrect.
 

Winky

Well-Known Member
Gay.JPG
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
HomeLAN said:
FTR, I really don't give much of a crap about this issue, but getting to WHY it's OK or isn't is the root issue, and nobody has yet been able to solve it for me. I'm hoping one of you can.

The root problem....I can't answer that. I am not a historical scholar but it does seem that, following observed trends, the nations/empires that lost sight of why it's a problem & allowed homosexuality to flourish, openly, were rather rapidly ended. On average, it's taken less than (or about) 2 generations from openness to fallen. Greek & Roman are only the latest. It's an interesting phenomena.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
Finally I can add my $.02 not related to anothers response.

Paul said:
whether Homosexuals are deviant, and are morally wrong

I believe those to be two different issues.

Yes, it is deviant. The definition of deviant being
MW said:
1 : to stray especially from a standard, principle, or topic
2 : to depart from an established course or norm

Normal is the key indicator.
Normal
2 a : according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle b : conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern
3 : occurring naturally <normal immunity>
4 a : of, relating to, or characterized by average intelligence or development b : free from mental disorder : SANE

I believe that 2b is the most fitting.

Using those definitions & the standards in North America, homosexuality is deviant. The standard is to date, marry, reproduce, age, die. Has been for hundrends of years.

About 35 years ago a movement started to change that pattern. They initially wanted only to be recognized & not admonished. Fast forward to 2003 and our courts suggest that the government has no business outlawing certain private behaviors (anal intercourse and/or fellatio) and some courts even demand a legislature pass laws making marriage between homosexual partners legal. So, during that time the agenda became known & those called paranoid in 1965 are now called bigots. The agenda ever moves forward, stopping for noone or nothing.

Persoanlly I have no problem with homosexuals & the act they call love. I personally find it unusual & repugnant but whatever rocks their boat. I even believe they can have a life long love & do as "well" as heterosexuals.

I also know by observation that they don't, normally, do that. Male homosexuals are, by & large, sexually rapacious. The more the merrier. "So what" you ask...that behavior creates an atmosphere of acceptance & tolerance towards other, far riskier (deadlier?) actions. It works on destroying an established norm & calling into question whether there even is a norm. It takes sex out of the realm of special & unique & puts it into the average category. Why be married to have sex, all animals do it, blah blah blah. I for one wish to be above mere animals. Some animals also eat shit. I don't find that normal either.

So, I suppose, immoral & deviant may be closer than I thought. Too bad.
 

Gonz

molṑn labé
Staff member
BTW, this is a generalisation. Please don't get started on how your Uncle Willma & Aunt Fred have been happily ever after since 1962. (specifics aren't needed)
 

Camelyn

New Member
The question was "Is homosexual behavior deviant, and therefore morally wrong"

Then a debate about what is normal ensued, and then the genetic debate came up.

IMO, these are all separate issues, two of which are societal, and one of which is pure biology; science.

Scientifically speaking, as of the most recent research, homosexuality is not a state of being cause by a single genetic mutation. The biology of attraction is way to complex for that. However, it does appear that there is a genetic basis for homosexual behavior, however the exact gene combo, as well as the physiological mechanism, are not yet known. TD wonderfully presented some hypotheses about the possibly reasons why this genetic adaptation may have survived in the gene pool. And that’s about as far as the science goes.

“Normal”, “moral” and “deviant”. These are societal terms that have nothing to do with, nor have any bearing on the biology of the issue. Some people will argue that if homosexuality is genetic, then it is natural and therefore not deviant behavior. Some homosexuals are offended by this reasoning, believing that they should be accepted for who they are, regardless of genetics. I just think they are and should be separate issues.

For some people, any deviation from normal is immoral. For most though, normality and morality do not equate. It may be “abnormal” to be born an albino, or to be missing a limb due to accident. These states of being are not immoral, however.

So what are we left with then? Morality. The concept of morality can be further broken down into societal morality, and individual morality. In our society, morality is usually defined on the basis of the prevailing religious dictates. In North America, the prevailing religious doctrine is Christianity, which as a general rule regards homosexual behavior as an immoral act.

Each individual has his own set of morals, however, that do not necessarily correspond to the prevailing societal morality. These are based on innumerable social factors and experiences completely unique to that individual. Thus each individual will eventually decide for himself or herself whether or not homosexuality is immoral.

Unless the basis for our societal morality moves away from religious doctrine, and if or until the prevailing definition of morality for the majority or the population defines homosexuality as an unusual, but not immoral state of being, this argument will continue without resolution.

"Is homosexual behavior deviant, and therefore morally wrong?"

It’s up to you.

IMO, nope, just different :D
 

HomeLAN

New Member
Gonz said:
The root problem....I can't answer that. I am not a historical scholar but it does seem that, following observed trends, the nations/empires that lost sight of why it's a problem & allowed homosexuality to flourish, openly, were rather rapidly ended. On average, it's taken less than (or about) 2 generations from openness to fallen. Greek & Roman are only the latest. It's an interesting phenomena.

Interesting phenomena, perhaps, but absolutely zero evidence presented of a causal relationship.
 

Thulsa Doom

New Member
HomeLAN said:
Interesting phenomena, perhaps, but absolutely zero evidence presented of a causal relationship.

You beat me to it. This is a horribly spurious leap of logic. First off, I would love to see the sources that point to homosexuality in these cultures only developing within a generation or so from their "demise". That seems patently abusrd to me especially in greece which had pre-greecian traditions of young male concubines. Didnt seem to stop them from becoming a world power. Secondly, you can in now way tie homosexuality to the destruction of all the earths great empires then you can tie heterosexuality. was there heterosexuality going on in these places too?? Furthermore, what are we to conclude from the fact that the most powerful force on the globe in 1940 was in ruins just fives years later once they started exterminating homosexuals as inferior deviants unworthy of life...
 

Winky

Well-Known Member
Ronald Reagan on gay rights:
"Society has always regarded marital love as a sacred expression of the bond between a man and a woman. It is the means by which families are created and society itself is extended into the future. In the Judeo-Christian tradition it is the means by which husband and wife participate with God in the creation of a new human life. It is for these reasons, among others, that our society has always sought to protect this unique relationship. In part the erosion of these values has given way to a celebration of forms of expression most reject. We will resist the efforts of some to obtain government endorsement of homosexuality."
 
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