Was reading some news, and found this...
- Thread starter Jeslek
- Start date
freako104
Well-Known Member
luis i read this and i agree. though i dont know that its totally hurt pride to be honest. i think its all jsut bullshit people who want power or whatever it is. and also i hope this doesnt offend you or anyone on here and if it does you have my sincerest apologies. it reminded me of a quote by my fave comedian George Carlin. the quote is as follows "wars are fought over the bigger dick foreign polixy. You dont have to be a political scientist or a politican to understand the bigger dick foreign policy. It goes something like this. What they have bigger dicks??!! BOMB THEM!! and of course the bombs, the bullets and the rockets are all shaped like dicks." again to anyone offended im very sorry. but Luis you have mafe a good point that pride somewhere was hurt and someones going to try to compensate for it. although ive said it befoire and i stand by the belief that the Vietnam and Korean war were both about paranoia in the US about Communism, and that WWII was fought because of a psychotic madman who wanted to rule the world.
GOD ALMIGHTY
YHWH
Name one time peace happened, between two or more foes, without a war to decide it. Peace is ideal. War in inevitable. 
Ardsgaine
New Member
My point is that there is a big difference between saying that something did happen, and that something has been reported as having happened. Just because a newspaper article says that there have been reports of something, that doesn't mean that the something actually occurred. The most you can conclude is that someone was willing to make the claim.
The Palestinians voted Arafat into office in a free and open election? When is the next election? Are other government offices open to election, or are they all appointed by El Presidente?
Well, it matters to the Israelis. I have no problem with people living under a dictatorship if that's what they want, but when that dictatorship begins attacking its neighbors, I think the neighbors have a right to respond with force.
I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, I'm just baffled when someone who seems to value freedom in at least some contexts spends so much effort to defend tyrants and murderers. Maybe it would help if you explained exactly what you think Israel could do, short of committing mass suicide, that would bring about peace in the area.
Ardsgaine
New Member
Originally posted by Luis G
you = you and LastLegionary
I rest my case, i think i said what i needed to say. Hope you have read it, and tried to understand it, just as i tried to understand what you were trying to mean.
I could argue the ears off of a donkey and never get tired, but if you're not having fun anymore, I'll drop it.
Take care.
ris
New Member
i have never defended tyrants and terrorists. i condemn them fully for what they do, resorting to the worst sort of cowardice to try to reach their aims.
you suggested i make a case of moral equivilancy, i see it as being aware that bad things happen on both sides and contribute to the ratcheting of tension and bad feeling.
the israeli's feel they are surrounded on all sides by enemies, this in part is true. the palestinians feel oppressed, second-class citizens in what they view as their own country, this is also, in part, true. checkpoints and walls around towns may serve their purpose of stopping terrorists but it also leaves the people within feeling hopeless, alienated. perhaps it drives some to believe that the only way to get their voice heard is to blow themselves up, i don't know.
the issues in the middle east are not black and white, good side bad side. the expulsion or extermination of one side will not solve the problem. both sides have to learn to live together. if we simplify the issues too far then it becomes encamped in ideology, such as extremists have got to.
understanding a little of how the other side feels might help find a way forward. neither ideological view is a likely outcome so movement must occur. movement will only happen in talks.
as i said before, palestine has the farthest to come, they have a great deal of sorting out to do. that is not to say that israel has nothing to do either, both sides must work at it.
i believe that most ordinary people, jewish and palestinian, want to get on with living their lives free of bombs, tanks, checkpoints and hate.
i'd still like to read gonz's source btw
you suggested i make a case of moral equivilancy, i see it as being aware that bad things happen on both sides and contribute to the ratcheting of tension and bad feeling.
the israeli's feel they are surrounded on all sides by enemies, this in part is true. the palestinians feel oppressed, second-class citizens in what they view as their own country, this is also, in part, true. checkpoints and walls around towns may serve their purpose of stopping terrorists but it also leaves the people within feeling hopeless, alienated. perhaps it drives some to believe that the only way to get their voice heard is to blow themselves up, i don't know.
the issues in the middle east are not black and white, good side bad side. the expulsion or extermination of one side will not solve the problem. both sides have to learn to live together. if we simplify the issues too far then it becomes encamped in ideology, such as extremists have got to.
understanding a little of how the other side feels might help find a way forward. neither ideological view is a likely outcome so movement must occur. movement will only happen in talks.
as i said before, palestine has the farthest to come, they have a great deal of sorting out to do. that is not to say that israel has nothing to do either, both sides must work at it.
i believe that most ordinary people, jewish and palestinian, want to get on with living their lives free of bombs, tanks, checkpoints and hate.
i'd still like to read gonz's source btw
ris
New Member
intersting stuff gonz, thanks. is there a simlilar one for israel, i'd like to read that too. do you know who compiled it?
i find it interesting that there is a strong majority in favour of the intifada [uprising], but there is also a majority that see it as concurrent with negotiations. i don't see how the 2 can go together.
note the use of the phrasing to the suicide bombing as suitable response to the political climate. it is sad that such a large majority are in favour, and that they see it as a response to, not the precursor of, israeli military action.
it seems clear from the data that a seperate palestinian state has strong support, or a situation where a bi-political arrangement is formed, and that the common goal is that occupation of the state should end [not withstanding that israel do not recognise it]. the issue of settlements seems to be much of the problem.
those who see liberating all of palestine as the best solution is under 15%. two seperate nations is 47%.
i find it interesting that there is a strong majority in favour of the intifada [uprising], but there is also a majority that see it as concurrent with negotiations. i don't see how the 2 can go together.
note the use of the phrasing to the suicide bombing as suitable response to the political climate. it is sad that such a large majority are in favour, and that they see it as a response to, not the precursor of, israeli military action.
it seems clear from the data that a seperate palestinian state has strong support, or a situation where a bi-political arrangement is formed, and that the common goal is that occupation of the state should end [not withstanding that israel do not recognise it]. the issue of settlements seems to be much of the problem.
those who see liberating all of palestine as the best solution is under 15%. two seperate nations is 47%.
freako104
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by GOD ALMIGHTY
Name one time peace happened, between two or more foes, without a war to decide it. Peace is ideal. War in inevitable.
so do you mean that its human nature for us to cave into wars? also just wanted to ask because you said peace is ideal, do you mean its jsut a pipe dream kind of thing osmething well never have?
GOD ALMIGHTY
YHWH
Evolution takes many millennia to establish. Time will tell.
Professur
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by freako104
Originally posted by GOD ALMIGHTY
Name one time peace happened, between two or more foes, without a war to decide it. Peace is ideal. War in inevitable.
so do you mean that its human nature for us to cave into wars? also just wanted to ask because you said peace is ideal, do you mean its jsut a pipe dream kind of thing osmething well never have?
Great point. Shame you missed it.
People don't start wars. Leaders do. People follow their leaders. Why? Because that's their nature. People aren't warlike at all. They're lazy. They let others make the decisions they should be making for themselves. And rather than stand up to a bad decision, they go along with it. It's too much trouble to stand up for themselves.
That's how you get suicide bombers. Their leader tells them that they'll go to God if they take some enemy with them. but when's the last time you saw one of the bosses strap on a bomb?
Ardsgaine
New Member
That's bull. The people who plan and carry out suicide attacks aren't lazy. They are highly motivated individuals driven to action by the ideas they believe in. The Al Quaeda fighters came to Afghanistan from other countries in order to fight the infidel. If they were lazy, they could have stayed at home, gotten married and gone into the family business.
Leaders don't exist in a vacuum. They depend on the support of the people they lead. This is true even in a dictatorship. Some substantial portion of the people have to support the dictator in order for him to remain in power. It doesn't have to be a majority, but it has to be more than just his personal bodyguard, and more even than the military.
Jeslek
Banned
Here is another article that proves that the Palestinians are twisted monsters.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12012737,00.html
Sick.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12012737,00.html
Sick.
freako104
Well-Known Member
hey prof, i agree to an extent about following the leaders however i believe that its not laziness but sometime its how charismatic the leader is. take some examples of sick leaders such as Hitler,Jim Jones,Stalin,Polpot. they were charismatic in their speeches and gained followers that way. in some cases people didnt question them or show any kind of dissonance for that matter. some cases were because of fear others because they believed so strongly in what the leader said. oh and to be honest i didnt think my point was all that great as i will admit it is jaded what i said about human nature leading to violence and such. god, i do want to say this too. evolution takes millnia as you said but i do believe that we can start now. humans are one species and should try to help each other survive.
GOD ALMIGHTY
YHWH
Start now? It started 10000 years ago. There has been a surprising amount of movement too. Keep going.