You have a box...

[HeXp£Øi±]

Contained within this box is the entire universe. For this hypothetical idea you must pretend that there is no 'outside the box'. The box is everything in the universe. We'll pretend that the box is one cubic meter. Now pretend that you have the mind of god. Your memory and thought capacity are limitless. You know where every particles position is in space(the box) precisely. You know the exact speed of every neutrino and the inertness behind every photon. Nothing is hidden from you. Assuming that our physics of today are correct, and that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, would you not then have the capacity to predict the outcome of every event that took place within the box? Consider the physics in a game of pool. A good pool player can easily make a difficult bank shot by calculating the exact force he must put on the cue ball, and by hitting the cue in just the right place. He then relies on the law of physics which states that an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an outside force. In short, he/she trusts that the cue if hit straight forward is not going to move in the shape of an S.
My point is that if this works on a small scale for us, why wouldn't it work on a larger scale? Because you know everything about every single particle contained within the box wouldn't you have the knowledge to predict mathmatically where everything was going to to be ten seconds from now? How about ten minutes or ten million years?

 

[Gonz]

Your memory and thought capacity are limitless.

That is what would make it possible.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Gonz, do you think these rules apply to the real universe?

 

[Gonz]

No. Atheism has one major drawback. There is nothing to look forward to. I know humanity will expand, not in my lifetime though.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Not sure i understood your answer.
So you're saying you don't believe that the box theory works on a universal level. That if you did have that intelligence you wouldn't be able to predict the outcome of the universe? If this is what you think maybe you(or anyone)can explain to me how the box idea differs from the the real world because i don't see any difference.

 

[Gonz]

I think if one could have infinite knowledge, then it is possible. I don't believe infinite knowledge is possible however.

 

[Dave]

but if the math was right, you wouldn't need infinite knowledge

 

[Gonz]

to know where everything, everywhere is, at one single point requires infinite knowledge.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

I think if one could have infinite knowledge, then it is possible. I don't believe infinite knowledge is possible however.

You don't believe in god fine, but what your saying by stating that the above is true is that you believe in fate. You're saying that every single thing you do and every movement that you make is predestined. Even though you believe that it's your will that wills you to pick up that cup of coffee, in reality the particles in your body were already on that course or else how could every movement you make be calculated to determine your future? Maybe god doesn't exist but don't the rest of these facts seem logical? God really has little to do with the question.

 

[Mirlyn]

to know where everything, everywhere is, at one single point requires infinite knowledge.

I think one must define infinite to take such a stand, and at that point things become too subjective to say one way or another. IE, Einstien thought of many things (just to generalize), and I could never come up with that many things on my own, so therefore what is infinite knowledge to me may be slightly less than infinite or even comprehensible/possible knowledge to Einstein.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Infinite in this respect would not be infinite in the mathmatical sense but rather knowing everything there is to know.

 

[Dave]

Could you predict(mathmatically) events ahead of time?

Now pretend that you have the mind of god. Your memory and thought capacity are limitless. You know where every particles position is in space(the box) precisely. You know the exact speed of every neutrino and the inertness behind every photon. Nothing is hidden from you

which are you talking about? mathmatical or infinite knowledge?

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

To know everything. Call it what you will.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

I'd like to know who said they were troubled by this. Don't worry, this concept has been an epiphany to many a great thinker. It more often than not causes the most distress in athiests who refuse to believe that human will is mearly an appearence and at the same time according to mathamatics and theory cannot deny that the arguement is by scientific method irrefutable, unless of course you completely deny the laws of physics.

 

[Dave]

in that case, the infinite knowledge is the math.

 

[outside looking in]

Impossible, according to our best understanding of the universe, due to the uncertainty principle.

Under this principle, it is not enough to simply know "all that is knowable" because there are some values (dependent pairs) which are simply unknowable in unlimited resolution. Thus, being infinitely knowledgable isn't enough, you'd have to also know the unknowable.

Which brings up an interesting question... supposing for a moment that you grant that the Christian God exists, would you think it possible that He created the laws of physics (quantum mechanics) in just this manner precisely because he didn't want to have perfect prediction abilities? After all... what is the good of creating man to be a companion if you already know all his future actions? Indeed, why ever say "the making of man is grevious unto me" if you know it would turn out the way it did? Then again... that's a pretty big presumption to belive in the Christian God in the first place, so it probably doesn't matter...

 

[outside looking in]

...according to mathamatics and theory cannot deny that the arguement is by scientific method irrefutable...

Except that science itself declares that it is impossible, no matter how great the knowledge or memory capacity, to "know everything." Not even in principle. The laws of physics forbids it.

 

[Dave]

*has a sudden desire to re-read the foundation trilogy*

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

The uncertainty principle wouldn't affect god so it's not in the equation.It only affects the limitations of men who are forced to bounce giant light photons off of tiny particles just in order to view them. God doesn't have these limitations. The hypothetical in this question is if you knew everything(ragardless of whether or not that's possible hence the term hypothetical). Besides, it doesn't matter whether or not you can know everything, the point is that according to physics we are governed by constants and you're not going to just pick up that coffee because you will it but because every particle in your body was already on it's set path following the laws of enertia and motion. How are you going to interfear with the laws of motion?
Don't get me wrong here. I'm only presenting this as an idea. I'm a christian and so i don't believe that anything we do is predetermined. I believe in the awesomeness of god that surpasses our understanding. So i can explain away this paradox simply because gods workings are far beyond my intellect but the athiest cannot explain this away so easily.
(I know, i was an athiest when i first encountered this problem)

 

[dan]

The hypothetical in this question is if you knew everything(ragardless of whether or not that's possible hence the term hypothetical). Besides, it doesn't matter whether or not you can know everything, the point is that according to physics we are governed by constants...

i won't even pretend to know what i'm talking about when it comes to quantum mechanics, but half an hour or so of a lecture about it happened the other week...

but what you're assuming in this question, is essentially:

infinate knowlege + laws of physics = destiny

from that little half-hour taster, those laws of physics, when you get down to the quantum level, are weird fuckers... and we don't really understand all of what's going on there anyway.

i postulate that this question arises from a flawed premise, and that there are some laws of physics that, even when combined with infinate knowlege about the situation, still cannot have thier outcome predicted.