Affirmative Action Grading

Gato_Solo said:
Knowledge is what you get from the books...Comprehension is what you get from actually applying that knowledge.
Perhaps this is the cause of our disagreement. I agree with the above statement, but I know that comprehension can be judged by responses to questions.

If I ask "what are the difficulties with FE modeling of composite structures, what is the underlying theory that causes this to be the case, and how do you work around those difficulties with current FE softwares?" and they are able to correctly respond, then I damn well know they have a hell of a lot more experience and first-hand applicable knowledge than what they learned in school. It's practically impossible to predict the response to such a question from the information presented on a resume. I know, I've read a lot of them, and I've heard a lot of responses.
 
Ok, interviewing has a lot of merit. I won't disagree with that. But also, you can't disagree with the fact the interviewing can lead to choosing someone based on personal preferences and predudices. EVERYONE is predjudice, and EVERYONE discriminates. Lets not pretend on this one. I'm not saying everyone is a racist who hates people that are different than themselves, but we ALL discriminate, we start at a very very early age!!! It's a natural human characteristic. We perfer people who are similar to ourselves, and as an interviewer, given the same backgroud we would choose the individual who is most similar to us, or who has the most traits that we identify with. This is for the most part, unconscious, we know we like one person more than another, even when we don't even exactly know why. In an interview, most times, the interviewer will prefer the candidate that they LIKE the most, assuming all else is equal. And lets not pretend that there are rarely cases where all else is equal. Ok, in your highly specialized example, it may not be the case, but for MOST positions, there are a number of highly qualified candidates, ALL of which would be more than capable of doing the job. Since these are the vast majority of cases, I think Gato is making many valid points that are being disregarded based on a very specialized situation. In these case, in normal cases, where you have a thousand qualified applicants, and a hundred people who exceed all your expectations, and 10 who you might actually interview, the decisoin comes down to who the interviewer(s) LIKE the most. This has been alluded to, but not explicitly stated. Good fit, able to adjust, get along with other employees, sociable, etc etc. In other words, someone you like, someone that YOU could maybe even consider to be a friend, someone like YOU. Why? Because we ALL discriminate, and we all have our predjudices, and we all would choose the candidate that is most similar to our notions of ideal based on those predjudices assuming all else is equal (and in many cases, even when all else isn't equal). And, no doubt, in most cases there are numerous candidates applying for a position where this IS the case, all else IS equal! This is a very large economy, to make this argument generalize from recruiting engineers to recruiting anyone in the economy is a big jump. I'm pretty sure engineers make up a very small part of the economy, as do ALL these specialized positions that would require such rigorous standards of screening. In most jobs, a heart beat is sufficent, more than sufficent. Hell, in most cases the degree and the experience is irrelevant as well, and we all know this! There are some cases where the degree and previous experience matter, but for the most part, and for most positions, it just doesn't!
 
RD_151 said:
In these case, in normal cases, where you have a thousand qualified applicants, and a hundred people who exceed all your expectations, and 10 who you might actually interview, the decisoin comes down to who the interviewer(s) LIKE the most. This has been alluded to, but not explicitly stated. Good fit, able to adjust, get along with other employees, sociable, etc etc.
I did explicitly state that, and even put it in bold.

And in such a situation, what pray tell do you think is the appropriate criteria to make a decision based upon?? If all else really is equal, and I have ten equally qualified and competent candidates, should I roll the dice? Fill a quota? Low-ball them and see who takes less pay than they deserve? Let the dog pick one out?

How about picking the one that has a personality most consistent with your work environment? And where in that does color come into play?

AA is a form of discrimination. It is sound in principle, and I understand perfectly the reasoning for it. Hell, had I been a politician or legislator when AA was started, I would have agreed with it and supported it. Now we have decades of data, and I think it is obvious that a real solution is needed. I don't blame people for trying, I blame them for continuing a damaging system.
 
My point is that we will discriminate based on our own preferences given a chance. I'm not in favor of the system, I'm only being honest about what happens in its absence. If I'm a recruiter, I'm not gonna hire someone I don't think I have anything in common with, and who I don't think that I or others in my organization can get along with. However, whether my reasons be cultural, racial, or personality based, I'm still discriminating in one way or another. You can't end discrimination, its impossible. If the recruiter is of a different background, culture, race, or has a different personality from my own, I will be discriminated against as well (to some extent at least). That's just how it goes. I will discriminate, you will discriminate, all of us will. It's human nature to do so. Anytime there is human contact, we will give preference to those with traits we prefer, whether that be that they are an alumn from our school, a person from our home town, or member the same race, culture, or religion. We will always discriminate! All people are predjudice and all people discriminate. I guess my point is a lot of people want to pretend there is no discrimination, or that only bad or evil people discriminate, and that's just not the case. We ALL do it. This is the fundemental reason we have AA in the first place.
 
One thing you failed to mention - effective verbal communication. More problems are caused in this world by a simple inability to communicate effectively than you could imagine... or maybe you can...
 
Aunty Em said:
One thing you failed to mention - effective verbal communication. More problems are caused in this world by a simple inability to communicate effectively than you could imagine... or maybe you can...
I mentioned at one point that the ability to cogently present thoughts verbally was an important consideration, but I probably didn't emphasize it enough. You are correct, in many jobs being able to express the results of your work is just as important as being able to do the work.
 
RD_151 said:
All people are predjudice and all people discriminate. I guess my point is a lot of people want to pretend there is no discrimination, or that only bad or evil people discriminate, and that's just not the case. We ALL do it. This is the fundemental reason we have AA in the first place.
That is not the fundamental reason we have AA. AA is not a program to end discrimination, which would be most welcome; it is a program that legalizes and enforces discrimination.

That might sound harsh, but that is the reality. Truth be told - and I said this earlier - without the benefit of hindsight I would have completely agreed with and supported AA. Enforcing discrimination is a theoretically sound "correction" to the free market system. It is socialistic in principle, but so are many of our laws, and almost all of our taxes. I don't lean so far to the right that I think a "pure" free market is the best option. I think a bit of regulation and correction is necessary to maintain a stable and efficient economy. AA was seen as one of these corrections... one which moved the marginal cost/benefit curves into alignment with "social" benefit and cost instead of "personal" benefit and cost. Those are the corrections that our government makes when it imposes restrictions and/or taxes on our purchases. In principle, I agree that correction is sometimes needed. AA corrects a personal/social error that is a result of centuries of discrimination.

Unfortunately, and I wouldn't have seen this in advance any better than those making the legislation did, this correction comes at the cost of introducing another error. IMO, you trade an error in the market system (historical discrimination) that would dissipate with the passage of time with an error (institutionalized discrimination) that pertains and is enforced by law. In theory, such an error could be considered an appropriate correction, but in practice that hasn't been the case.

Some AA programs are good, and should remain. Many others are simply unethical, and should be scrapped. The reform would be difficult, and painful, but I believe it is entirely necessary.
 
I would imagine that AA will soon be drawing to a natural end. It did serve to accelerate the correction process and in that, I would say I agreed with it. I think we're now pretty close to the point at which anti-discrimination laws would suffice.
 
Well, in order for historical discrimination to end, AA must also end. Its only causing more problems by creating instances where, for example, white males believe they were discriminated against because of AA even if AA had nothing to do with it. I think more often than not, people blame AA for their troubles when it had nothing to do with it. Take for example the law school issue. Was it really because of AA that someone didn't get into UofM law? Maybe, but for every time AA was the reason, there were thousands who blamed AA for not getting in, even when in absence of the program the STILL wouldn't have gotten in. This I think is the biggest problem with a system like AA. I have no idea how to fix the problem as I've said over and over again. I also think AA only makes matters worse in the end. Although, maybe it was worse back in the day when someone from a group favored by AA presently couldn't get into U of M law, or get hired at some firm. Maybe AA helps more as a buffer against all those who are still discriminated against too. Maybe there would be more anger in the absence of the program from those who are currently favored. Maybe they view the existance of AA as enough to make them content that the situation is being dealt with. Its difficult to say. I think we'd be better off without it, but then again, how can we be sure?

Nevertheless, discrimination comes from everyone, in any position to hire or admit people to any program somewhere. And maybe people were indeed being discriminated against in a particular situation, but not for the reasons they think. Maybe it was nothing to do with race, religon, or sex, maybe it was something trivial? That's life I guess. I mean really, is a Harvard grad really that much better than anyone else from a top 50 school? Maybe in some cases, but generally its about people wanting hire and promote people who are like themselves. Clearly this is a basis firms discriminate by regularly, universities too. Ivy's get preference, and others are discriminated against. But is it really discrimination? Kind of, but then again, not really. Racial discrimination is only one type of discrimination, and it's probably not even the most common. It's certainly one of the mostthe salient, because it's easy to see it, and there appears to be a lot more people affected by it than other forms of discrimination, but everyone is affected by discrimination of one kind or another.

As I said before, I'm not in favor of AA, I only see why they wanted it, and why Gato's argument about skipping the inteview can have some merit in many cases. Although, at the same time, I wouldn't expect anyone to hire someone sight unseen with no prior contact either. Verbal comminication is obvioulsy very important, and sadly we can't pretend physical appearance isn't important either. In many cases, whether we admit it or not, it is very important. Psychological studies will demonstrate that attractive people are a hell of a lot better at certain jobs, for instance sales. We can pretend it doesn't matter, and maybe even HR departments may try to say it doesn't, but the evidence says otherwise in many cases.

We all discriminate, and we are all discriminated against, thats life. There really is no way to counter act it, not that is fair or efficeint.
 
Squiggy said:
I would imagine that AA will soon be drawing to a natural end. It did serve to accelerate the correction process and in that, I would say I agreed with it. I think we're now pretty close to the point at which anti-discrimination laws would suffice.
I think it has passed the point where it was doing more good than harm, but I also would say that it served a useful purpose.

My fear is that it isn't going to draw to a natural end. It's time has passed, and it needs to end.
 
Well, I guess if I were benefitting from something i wouldn't want to give it up. Once you give something, its politically difficult to take it back. Hopefully, if the supreme court makes u of m do the right thing that will get the ball rolling.
 
To be honest, I can't say that I never, personally, benefitted from AA at all. Everything I have, I worked hard for, and I will continue to do so. On the other hand, I can't help but think that, somewhere along the line, before I joined the military, I got a job because of AA. :nuts: Everybody would like to think that they 'made it' on their own, but, unless you win a high-dollar powerball lottery, you haven't. Every decent job we've ever had comes from knowing someone...unless you graduated college, and then it depends upon what school you went to and the grades you got. These are the facts. Believe them, or not, and debate them, or not, it all comes down to background.
 
Well, graduating from the right college will only take you so far. Eventually, it all comes back to knowing the right people. Two guys go to Yale, one is a 4.0 with no connections, and the others dad is the director of CIA and later becomes prez, but graduate number 2 barely graduates. Who has the better future? The smart guy who doesn't know anybody, or the not so bright guy that was only there because of family ties in the first place? Sure, the smart guy might go on to become an academic, or even work on wallstreet, but he's gonna bust his ass still, and is still not guaranteed success. He will be better off than the guy at the community college, but not as well off as his other well connected classmates at Yale. Everything is relative again as always. Success and failures as well are relative. Landing a 6 figure job may be success for us, but for a Yale grad, anything short of 7 figures may seem like a failure. On the other hand, the highschool drop out who ends up making 70K because he knew the right people to get a job working at Ford may feel like the richest and most lucky man in the world. Its all relative! The thing is nobody does anything on their own in this world, not really. Anyone who argues otherwise is grossly simplifying the big picture. Everyone gets help from someone, and AA was trying to replace that help that apparently seems to be missing for some people. Again, I'm not trying to defend the system before anyone gets upset ;) I just didn't really agree with Gato's "unless you go to college" statement. It helps in a relative way, but still, it's who you know, not what you know in most cases.
 
Jesus Christ you people are scary. :(

Gato... in my case, yes, it was background that landed me my job, but it was the interview that revealed that background. I agree that background is key, but I disagree that someone's background can be adequately summarized on a piece of paper or two. That's ludicrous.

RD... the whole world isn't as corrupt you think. I was hired without knowing anyone at the company. With over 6000 employees, you'd think I would have had some connection, but... nada. At our small branch, half the employees here knew someone that already worked here before they interviewed (often a good way to find people with the correct background), and the other half didn't know a soul. It's like you're saying you only get jobs if you are connected. Being connected certainly helps, but it is possible to do without. ;) I'm not saying you'll ever have things spoon fed to you if you aren't connected, but you can certainly get the kind of job you deserve.
 
I didn't mean to imply that its the ONLY way to get a job. I just said it's relative. You are gonna go farther if you know people. A friend of mine got a job at a top tier Ibank with one phone call. We're talking about the difference between starting at 45k or less (back in the good economy) or 6 figures your first year out of school. That's a big jump! Now me, I did even worse than that (bad economy) with the same background, from the same school, and even slightly better grades. That's life I realize that. I'm not gonna say that there aren't other factors, but you'd be surprised what a little help can do. I'm not saying that without connections you will never find work, or you can't survive, but its not gonna be as easy for you. There are places out there where connections don't mean much, but then again, to some extent they always mean something. The more prestigious the postion, the more it matters. In Ibanking for example, its more about who you know. My friend found himself surounded by ART and MUSIC majors even at a top Ibank! Strange how that works, a degree in even ART can land you a 6 figure job on wallstreet if you went an Ivy, and you come from the right family ;) I'm just saying it's as important as what you know, and in many cases more so. When I was looking for a job, just after graduation, a friend of mine told me I was going about it all wrong, and invited me to a party with the lot of powerful people and said "if you really want to find something let me introduce you to a few people..." I didn't go ultimately, its not my style, that and my fiance (wife now) was really jealous of me spending time with her. I'd rather think I can handle things on my own. That's probably a silly notion though. Next time though, well, maybe I'll take her advice and go to the party ;) Actually, I'm quite sure I will :D
 
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