Andrea Yates Appeal Upheld

[Bobby Hogg]

In your eyes is murdering someone ok, as long as someone can claim you aren't right in the head?

Not at all. I just don't see how imprisoning sick people with common criminals or killing them offers a solution to the problem or prevents other sick people from doing the same in future.

Our justice system is a failure if all it can ever do is react to tragedy. By the time someone has been killed, it's too late for them. Revenge doesn't bring them back, doesn't wipe the crime or the pain away. Our aim should be to stop people from being hurt in the first place, to stop victims from being created.

I am all in favour of rough justice where it may work, but clearly in the case of the mentally ill it never, ever will. All it does is appeal to a base, vengeful mentality. It doesn't do anyone any good.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

Not at all. I just don't see how imprisoning sick people with common criminals or killing them offers a solution to the problem or prevents other sick people from doing the same in future.

It doesn't keep others from doing it. It keeps THEM from doing it.

Our justice system

You ain't American. It ain't your system. Your thoughts matter less than zero as pertains to OUR system.

is a failure if all it can ever do is react to tragedy. By the time someone has been killed, it's too late for them. Revenge doesn't bring them back, doesn't wipe the crime or the pain away. Our aim should be to stop people from being hurt in the first place, to stop victims from being created.

Since you have the answer to every problem on earth, enlighten us as to how this should be done. Make sure there are no exceptions, loopholes, or other special circumstances.

I am all in favour of rough justice where it may work, but clearly in the case of the mentally ill it never, ever will. All it does is appeal to a base, vengeful mentality. It doesn't do anyone any good

I have a psych degree and years upon years of work experience in both the mental health system and the criminal justice system. Your credentials to make such a statement are?

 

[chcr]

Is it that hard to answer a simple question? You made a comment, I am asking you to explain it. It would be easier just to say "no, I don't want to." Save us both the trouble.

Sorry, did I misunderstand the question? You seemingly asked why I was laughing at you, I think I explained that more than adequately.

If you're asking why I say sooner or later we'll have to, the reasons are manifold. Population pressure, lack of resources, changing climate...

The simple fact is that increasing freedom has met the brick wall of social stratification and no one seems willing to compromise. It has little to do with the case at hand, just an observation. When society goes through a large upheaval there are no resources for prisons or insane asylums. At that point, you have to pick and choose which people are worth salvaging and which you should write off. I'm saying that it's frequently not all that hard to tell.

Oh, and when someone starts telling you how "enlightened and advanced" we've become, place your hand firmly on your wallet and run. Society has not become more "enlightened and advanced." We have changed what the words mean though.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

It doesn't keep others from doing it. It keeps THEM from doing it.

It's too late, though, they already have.

You ain't American. It ain't your system. Your thoughts matter less than zero as pertains to OUR system.

"Ours" as in our society. Our justice systems are based upon similar principles. We have the same problems, thus our shared experiences can contribute to a shared solution.

Since you have the answer to every problem on earth, enlighten us as to how this should be done. Make sure there are no exceptions, loopholes, or other special circumstances.

I never claimed to have an answer for everything, no more than you do by offering an opinion on a matter.

We should approach the problem of crime scientifically by addressing the causes underlying the symptoms. For crimes committed by the mentally ill, perhaps we need to address how society views the mentally ill and how much emphasis we place on their care and supervision once they have been identified as disturbed. It's never going to be apparent in 100% of cases what a person will become capable of doing, but all too often we hear stories of neglect in regards to the mentally ill. The story on this forum of patients being sexually abused, in my opinion, ties into the same issue.

I have a psych degree and years upon years of work experience in both the mental health system and the criminal justice system. Your credentials to make such a statement are?

Are you disagreeing with it? Instead of attempting to create a pissing contest, how about you start by explaining to me how punishing the mentally ill prevents other mentally ill people from becoming criminals? When you offer a counter-point then your credentials may be relevant.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Are you disagreeing with it? Instead of attempting to create a pissing contest, how about you start by explaining to me how punishing the mentally ill prevents other mentally ill people from becoming criminals? When you offer a counter-point then your credentials may be relevant.

It's already been firmly established...by those who think along similar lines as you, that solutions are not important. You may now go back to your ranting and raving.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Sorry, did I misunderstand the question? You seemingly asked why I was laughing at you, I think I explained that more than adequately.

If you're asking why I say sooner or later we'll have to, the reasons are manifold. Population pressure, lack of resources, changing climate...

The simple fact is that increasing freedom has met the brick wall of social stratification and no one seems willing to compromise. It has little to do with the case at hand, just an observation. When society goes through a large upheaval there are no resources for prisons or insane asylums. At that point, you have to pick and choose which people are worth salvaging and which you should write off. I'm saying that it's frequently not all that hard to tell.

Oh, and when someone starts telling you how "enlightened and advanced" we've become, place your hand firmly on your wallet and run. Society has not become more "enlightened and advanced." We have changed what the words mean though.

I wasn't asking why you were laughing, I don't really care.

Environmental pressures always control population. If our population is growing it's only because the environment we live in allows for the growth to take place, nothing else. When resources become too limited for the population to grow, we will not have to do the killing ourselves.

As for the rest, I can't disagree but I feel the decision society has to make is when we cut away the lingering influence of superstition and nonsensical religious values and start to base our morals on more humanist values. There will be a social revolution, or several, which eventually decide this.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

It's already been firmly established...by those who think along similar lines as you, that solutions are not important. You may now go back to your ranting and raving.

Firmly established by whom?

 

[Gato_Solo]

Firmly established by whom?

You can read. Look it up yourself...

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

It's too late, though, they already have.

Funny. I've yet to see one person get up out of the electric chair and kill anybody else. Maybe you have.

We should approach the problem of crime scientifically by addressing the causes underlying the symptoms. For crimes committed by the mentally ill, perhaps we need to address how society views the mentally ill and how much emphasis we place on their care and supervision once they have been identified as disturbed. It's never going to be apparent in 100% of cases what a person will become capable of doing, but all too often we hear stories of neglect in regards to the mentally ill. The story on this forum of patients being sexually abused, in my opinion, ties into the same issue.

The causes of crime. Science has really gone a long way toward solving that one. And ya know what? They never will. Since the day Cain killed Abel, the world has been burdened with crime.

explaining to me how punishing the mentally ill prevents other mentally ill people from becoming criminals?

A) I called you out first.

B) I already said it doesn't. But it damn sure goes a long way toward keeping THAT one from doing it while they're locked up.

I have as much, probably more, empathy for the mentally ill than anyone here. But when they break the law, and know that what they did was wrong in the eyes of society, then they deserve punishment. Same as anyone else. Otherwise, it's a built in copout.

When you offer a counter-point then your credentials may be relevant.

Regardless of how you feel, they're already relevent. I got the diplomas to prove it.

I've still not seen yours by the way...what are you, a pizza guy or sumthin?

 

[Gonz]

We should approach the problem of crime scientifically by addressing the causes underlying the symptoms.

Great. Let's find new excuses & reasonings for people to do things they aren't supposed to.

"Well your Honor, I had a Tempemans Right Brain Seizure that day & had no control". Of course, Tempemans Right Brain Seizure would be called a headache in any other world but we're all not doctors & aren't allowed to question a diagnosis.

It doesn't matter why the crime was committed. Once the act has taken place, the perpetrator is a criminal & should be treated as such.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Funny. I've yet to see one person get up out of the electric chair and kill anybody else. Maybe you have.

That's not what I said. It's too late for the victims that person has already inflicted suffering upon. If I'm dead, it's of very little use to me if you execute my killer. I'm still dead.

The causes of crime. Science has really gone a long way toward solving that one. And ya know what? They never will. Since the day Cain killed Abel, the world has been burdened with crime.

I didn't say science, I said looking at the situation scientifically. Cause and effect, not solely emotion. You observe an effect and you investigate the causes behind it.

A) I called you out first.

B) I already said it doesn't. But it damn sure goes a long way toward keeping THAT one from doing it while they're locked up.

I have as much, probably more, empathy for the mentally ill than anyone here. But when they break the law, and know that what they did was wrong in the eyes of society, then they deserve punishment. Same as anyone else. Otherwise, it's a built in copout.

Again, it's too late for the victim of that person. I am not saying dangerous people should go free, either. Just that they are not common criminals and thus should not be treated as such.

Regardless of how you feel, they're already relevent. I got the diplomas to prove it.

I've still not seen yours by the way...what are you, a pizza guy or sumthin?

Yes, I am a pizza guy.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

Yes, I am a pizza guy.

Damn I'm good...

I didn't say science, I said looking at the situation scientifically.

 

[AllEars']

how about you start by explaining to me how punishing the mentally ill prevents other mentally ill people from becoming criminals?

By your way of thinking, 80% of the criminals should be released then, anyone that has depression which I would say jail can cause that has a mental illness. They are mentally ill, not incompetent. It clearly stated in this article (I put it in bold for you) that this woman knew right from wrong.


What puts the bread and butter on my very table comes from my employment working with the mentally ill and mentally challenged. 90% of who I work with know right from wrong and know that they WILL go to jail if they hurt someone, yes they need love and compasion, but they need reailty, also.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

You can apply scientific method to many things.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

By your way of thinking, 80% of the criminals should be released then, anyone that has depression which I would say jail can cause that has a mental illness. They are mentally ill, not incompetent. It clearly stated in this article (I put it in bold for you) that this woman knew right from wrong.


What puts the bread and butter on my very table comes from my employment working with the mentally ill and mentally challenged. 90% of who I work with know right from wrong and know that they WILL go to jail if they hurt someone, yes they need love and compasion, but they need reailty, also.

I agree here with you completely. I think paedophiles and rapists should be jailed permanently, for example, despite the fact that their mind is probably disturbed.

And I'm sorry if you thought I intended that comment about being stupid towards you, I was directing it towards Winky whose semi-literate meanderings are just plain irritating.

I already stated I don't know enough about this case, however people are acting as if this woman is being turned out onto the streets when she is not. Also, this is about a conviction being quashed because there is some dispute over the prosecution witness testimony.

Then this line of reasoning got mixed up somewhere along the line with me disagreeing the theory that we should be able to kill people for their own good.

 

[SouthernN'Proud]

You can apply scientific method to many things.

Undoubtedly.

But that does involve the use of science...

Where is Pedanticman when we need him?

 

[Bobby Hogg]

Undoubtedly.

But that does involve the use of science...

Where is Pedanticman when we need him?

I just wanted to clear up any suggestion that we can take apart criminal brains and fix them, re-condition people or find a crime gene or other such outlandish ideas which are conjured up by the idea of mentioning science as a solution.

 

[chcr]

I wasn't asking why you were laughing, I don't really care.

Fair enough.

Environmental pressures always control population. If our population is growing it's only because the environment we live in allows for the growth to take place, nothing else. When resources become too limited for the population to grow, we will not have to do the killing ourselves.

In fact the ability to overcome this negative feedback system in the short term contributes to a lot of problems that otherwise wouldn't exist. Also, I contend that we should do the killing ourselves. It improves (although does not guarantee) our chances for survival.

As for the rest, I can't disagree but I feel the decision society has to make is when we cut away the lingering influence of superstition and nonsensical religious values and start to base our morals on more humanist values. There will be a social revolution, or several, which eventually decide this.

I've been an atheist for around 35 years, so we're in agreement about superstition and religion. OTOH, the human values you refer to are a pretty fantasy, but they don't really exist. Humans are self-centered, combative, greedy and insular. Every civilization in history reflects this, and IMO they always will. I feel that this combative contentiousness was a necessary ingredient to intellect and self-awareness. Social revolution? Maybe but society will continue to evolve in any case. I just don't expect that it's possible for a human society to end up where you seem to want it to. We just aren't wired that way.

 

[Bobby Hogg]

In fact the ability to overcome this negative feedback system in the short term contributes to a lot of problems that otherwise wouldn't exist. Also, I contend that we should do the killing ourselves. It improves (although does not guarantee) our chances for survival.

Some populations in Europe remain static or are actually going into a very gradual decline. You have to bear in mind that we are only now feeling the effects of some very fast medical advances meaning that our life expectancies have increased greatly in the past century or so. The populations are growing more elderly, and the problem developed nations will face will eventually be a LACK of breeding rather than too much of it.

 

[chcr]

Some populations in Europe remain static or are actually going into a very gradual decline. You have to bear in mind that we are only now feeling the effects of some very fast medical advances meaning that our life expectancies have increased greatly in the past century or so. The populations are growing more elderly, and the problem developed nations will face will eventually be a LACK of breeding rather than too much of it.

The third world is more than making up for the lack. Think globally. Look at the current situation in France and extrapolate.