Arrests after Ten Commandments appeal fails

[HeXp£Øi±]

I think if we're going to make any changes whatsoever we need to first strike the "preserve and protect" and maybe insert "shape and mold".

It makes no sense to pledge to preserve and protect the constitution if that's not what we're going to do.

 

[AnomalousEntity]

Freedom of religion as long as your not christian, dont talk to anyone about it, dont preach it to others, dont wear any symbols, keep it out of government, courts, schools, and public places, have the popular media portray you all as abortion clinic bombers, and the popular society treat you as a bunch or far right lunatics, and never ever use it as rationalization/justification for any action you take or decision you make

Ok, it just needs a small re-write.


It should be fun when we get around to doing this to the first amendment, though I think the second amendment will come before that.

 

[Gonz]

The 10 commandments are a christian thing. A lot of people wouldn't a big Budha outside their courthouse, other people don't want christian stuff there. It's covered under the seperation of church and state and should accordingly be saved for the churches.

I can't believe I have to defend something I don't even believe (religion)
Nor am I fully convinced either side is right on this matter.

The commandments are not specifically Christian. They are part of the Judeo/Christian & Islamic religions. Buddah would be allowed if somebody was willing to pay for it. This particular sculpture was purchased by the Justice, not the state.

There are many, many Greek, Roman & even a few Aztec god sculptures all around this country. Where's the ACLU on removing them?

The seperation of chuch & state is non-existant. It was a ruling by a secular US Supreme Court in the early 60's. The Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". Why is a sculpture an "establishment of religion"?

Our country was founded on the principles of the Judeo Christian God. Our laws are based in the ten commandments. As long as the government doesn't officially endorse a religion nor punish those who believe differently, what is the big deal? About 90% of our country has some religious belief & of them, a vast majority beleive in the J/C/Islamic deity.

 

[flavio]

Buddah would be allowed if somebody was willing to pay for it.

You don't think anyone would mind that in the courthouse?

This particular sculpture was purchased by the Justice, not the state.

Good, he can stick it in his front yard. Keep it off governement property.

The seperation of chuch & state is non-existant. It was a ruling by a secular US Supreme Court in the early 60's. The Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". Why is a sculpture an "establishment of religion"?

Pretty simple, it's a sculpture representing a core belief from a certain religion/religions.

Our country was founded on the principles of the Judeo Christian God.

I would disagree and there's also something about religious freedom....and also that the key founding fathers were against this type of thing.

Our laws are based in the ten commandments.

Really? How many of those commandments have been made into law?

As long as the government doesn't officially endorse a religion

This is looked on by many as endorsing a religion. So I guess that settles that.

John Adams: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!’" Adams also championed The Treaty of Tripoli, which in Article 11 begins "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

Thomas Jefferson: "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

James Madison: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." </B>

 

[Squiggy]

Whoa...one of the old type RW discussions....KEWL! I remember these.

 

[A.B.Normal]

The commandments are not specifically Christian. They are part of the Judeo/Christian & Islamic religions. Buddah would be allowed if somebody was willing to pay for it. This particular sculpture was purchased by the Justice, not the state.

Hmm,Judge Moore don't feel that way.

(my apologize for using "that network")

Asked on XXX(edited out) whether he would support an Islamic monument to the Koran in the rotunda of the federal building, Moore replied, "This nation was founded upon the laws of God, not upon the Koran. That's clear in the Declaration (of Independence), so it wouldn't fit history and it wouldn't fit law."

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/08/22/ten.commandments/index.html

 

[Gonz]

Really? How many of those commandments have been made into law?

1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

4. Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the sabbath in honour of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother; in order that thy days may be prolonged upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

6. Thou shalt not murder.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. (this was changed with the newer divorce rules)

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

 

[Gonz]

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, ed. (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, June 21, 1776

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the pivilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."

The Correspondence and Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed. (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1890), Vol. IV, p. 393, Oct. 12, 1816

"The birth-day of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birth-day of the Saviour [and] forms a leading even in the progress of the gospel dispensation..[T]he Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth [and] laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity."

An Oration Delivered Before the Inhabitants of the Town of Newburyport at their Request on the Sixty-First Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence (Newburyport: Charles Whipple, 1837), pp. 5-6

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever."

Notes on the State of Virginia (Philadelphia: Matthew Carey, 1794), Query XVIII, p. 237

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."

Halley's Bible Handbook (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1927, 1965), p. 18

Now, are we going to trade told-ya-so quotes all night or are we going to have a discussion?

 

[flavio]

6. Thou shalt not murder.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. (this was changed with the newer divorce rules)

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

So the only ones we have laws against are murder, stealing, and lying. I wonder if any other religions are against this stuff?

....and remember there should have been 15 commandments

 

[Gonz]

None of those religions reach back 5000+ years into mankinds history & none are named as the founding principles of a civilized & ordered society.

Attacks on religion, in America, over the last 50 or so years are not attacks on religion. They are attacks on the Judeo/Christian beliefs. If we're going to remove the sculpture of the ten commandments, turn Christmas into winter festival, disallow Halloween parties, remove the pledge of allegiance, etc, fine. But how can then we allow Aztec (remember them, the people with a thirst for sacrifices), Roman & Greek gods & goddesses on state buildings, force some high schoolers & college freshmen to study the Qur'an & allow Wiccans to wear the Pentagram to school while disallowing the Christian cross?

As an non-believer I do not think gods/God exists. I also do not deny the possibility. I can no better prove the non-existance than Hex (for example) can prove one exists. Does it matter? Ones comfort with or without a deity is personal. Since the state is not allowed to establish a religion but has gone out of it's way, from the beginning, to establish it does place faith in one, and the state does not punish those whose beliefs are different (ie, the Church of England demanding the Puritans pay a tax to the CoE-which is the basis of the non-establishment clause) or non-existant, what can it hurt to allow generic symbols of the heritage of our country?

Remember who raised up in protest of the Buddahs getting blasted by the Taliban? It was a cross section of (non) believers. The Judeo Christian community did not side with the Islamic radicals. So, why now, does the secular community attack those who have a faith? The word God is not offensive. The teachings are what propelled mankind from behind the cloak of darkness & into communal systems. If you can't handle that, then you need to look into yourself. One can't preach tolerance & simultaneously hate.

 

[flavio]

Government institutions are public and there to serve all regardless of their faith. Christian messages have no place in government, it is discriminatory. Sure, you can make a valid arguement against any Greek or Roman sculpture but really it's not a religious discrimination issue since they don't have any following to speak of anymore.

This isn't about "attacking" religion, tolerance, or hate. Religion should be a private thing and kept that way. Religion has no place in government and government no place in religion.

force some high schoolers & college freshmen to study the Qur'an & allow Wiccans to wear the Pentagram to school while disallowing the Christian cross?

Example?

I think you still stand a far better chance of getting flack at any random school for wearing a pentagram than you would a cross.

 

[Gonz]

Cross

Pentagram

Sure, you can make a valid arguement against any Greek or Roman sculpture but really it's not a religious discrimination issue since they don't have any following to speak of anymore.

Doesn't matter. It's still a symbol of religion.

 

[flavio]

Cross

Pentagram

Those two schools aren't even in the same state. I thought there was some evidence that a school wouldn't allow a cross, but would allow pentagrams.

Sure, you can make a valid arguement against any Greek or Roman sculpture but really it's not a religious discrimination issue since they don't have any following to speak of anymore.​

Doesn't matter. It's still a symbol of religion.

They can go as well for all I care, but it's a pretty giant stretch to consider them as an endorsement or discrimination issue....don't you think?

 

[AnomalousEntity]

Those two schools aren't even in the same state. I thought there was some evidence that a school wouldn't allow a cross, but would allow pentagrams.

Doesnt matter. The trend is very clear all you have to do is open your eyes and ears and hear the attitudes towards christians on tv, in print, in schools, and in gov and then compare it towards things that are being said about other religions.

 

[flavio]

Doesnt matter. The trend is very clear all you have to do is open your eyes and ears and hear the attitudes towards christians on tv, in print, in schools, and in gov and then compare it towards things that are being said about other religions.

Really? I think if you opened your eyes you would see that kids are going to be WAY more likely to get hassled for wearing a pentagram than a cross in your average US school.

 

[freako104]

depends really on the school although like flav i see more christian things than not. however it is getting less power and other religions are getting more recognition.however there are stereotypes on every religion and they just cause harm as people are giving each other shit for whatever reason. sad really. cant see past our own ideas that we have to have everything match up to our standards.