Bowling For Columbine

markjs

markjs

Banned
This film is old news, but I just saw it. The one thing I really take from it is that there are over 11,000 gun related deaths annually in the US and under 200 in every other major country they mentioned. That alone is staggering!
 
Did he happen to compare overall murder rates? My guess is that if you take away the guns, people will simply kill with knives, clubs, etc.
 
I know it's full of fiction made to look like facts & this site looks like it is one of many to explain the problems.
 
In the scene where they go to K-Mart, the with the bald head is Brooks Brown. He is the one that Eric Harris hated and threatend and then let him go at the door of the school seconds before the shootings started. He is also my best friend and a big brother to me.
 
HomeLAN said:
Did he happen to compare overall murder rates? My guess is that if you take away the guns, people will simply kill with knives, clubs, etc.
Click to expand...


1. India 37,170 (1999)
2. Russia 28,904 (2000)
3. Colombia 26,539 (2000)
4. South Africa 21,995 (2000)
5. Mexico 13,829 (2000)
6. United States 12,658 (1999)
7. Venezuela 8,022 (2000)
8. Thailand 5,140 (2000)
9. Ukraine 4,418 (2000)
10. Indonesia 2,204 (2000)
11. Poland 2,170 (2000)
12. France 1051 (2000)
13. Belarus 1013 (2000)
14. Germany 960 (2000)
15. Korea, South 955 (2000)
16. Zimbabwe 912 (2000)
17. Jamaica 887 (2000)
18. United Kingdom 850 (2000)
19. Zambia 797 (2000)
20. Italy 746 (2000)
21. Yemen 697 (2000)
22. Japan 637 (2000)
23. Romania 560 (2000)
24. Malaysia 551 (2000)
25. Spain 494 (2000)

These are murders committed on the year listed next to each number. I am not sure why this list used different years, but I imagine it roughly approximates the differences by nation. Note that we are signifigantly higher than many major nations and by population proportions we have a high amount of murders by comparison.

I looked up the year 2000 for the US and there were actually 15000+ murders so the stats here were skewed in our favor.
 
How about per capita? 15,000 out of 280 million is a whole lot less than 1,000 out of 10 million.
 
I should have done the math before I posted these statistics. The murder rate per 1000 is:

Country Homicide Rate
Prison Incarceration Rate

RUSSIAN FED 8.1
690

UNITED STATES 8.2
666

BELARUS 4.8
505

UKRAINE 4.5
390

LATVIA 5.7
375

LITHUANIA 11.3
360

SINGAPORE 0.1
287

MOLDOVA 4.0
275

ESTONIA 4.9
270

SOUTH AFRICA 6.6
265

HONG KONG 1.0
207

ROMANIA 5.0
200

CZECH REPUBLIC 0.7
190

POLAND 1.0
170

SLOVAK REPUBLIC 0.3
150

REP.KOREA 1.8
137

NEW ZELAND 2.0
127

PORTUGAL 4.4
125

HUNGARY 2.2
120

CHINA 1.3
103

ENGLAND/WALES 0.5
100

FRANCE 1.7
95

AUSTRIA 4.7
85

SWITZERLAND 4.5
80

BELGIUM 4.6
75

DENMARK 1.1
65

NETHERLANDS 3.2
65

SWEDEN 2.9
65

FINLAND 3.9
60

IRELAND 1.2
55

NORWAY 1.9
55

JAPAN 1.3
37

CYPRUS 0.5
30

SLOVENIA 2.2
30

INDIA 3.8
24



(The first number is murder rate per 1000 and the second is incarceration rate. Note that we are number two in each)

But these numbers do not jive.
 
8.2 per thousand, eh? At that rate, even with 15,000 murders, the US has a population of 1.83 million.

I'm skeptical of your source.

BTW, without population figures, I could not have "done the math". Not enough info provided.
 
You're right those stats have to be wrong. I failed to check the math! Still I know the 15,000+ is accurate, becaus I got that from the FBI for the year 2000. so lets take just France and the US; if we have 280.000,000 people and 15,000+ murders and france has 60,000,000 people and 1000+ murders, 280,000,000 isn't even near 15x of 60,000,000 it's a little over 4x. I am having a hard time nailing down good stats obviously but i know damn well we are more violent on average than most societies.
 
I understand the stats problem. I've tried this exercise myself and had to quit because I couldn't find good numbers. This makes me somewhat doubt your total murders figures as well.

However, "I know damn well" only goes so far.
 
By the first set of numbers which I figure to be ballpark accurate from other figures I have seen, Mexico and Russia are far more violent than the United staes but by those number the United States is more violent than most Europen nations,
 
markjs said:
By the first set of numbers which I figure to be ballpark accurate from other figures I have seen, Mexico and Russia are far more violent than the United staes but by those number the United States is more violent than most Europen nations,
Click to expand...

And that's why there are 3 catagories of lies...

1. Lies
2. Damned lies
3. Statistics

Depending upon which site you go to, you can make a case for guns being owned by insane, bloodthirsty, murderous felons, or peaceful, quiet, and mannerly. What story do you want to tell. Cold, hard facts can be skewed also. The FBI tracks gun deaths, but does the FBI track stabbings as a seperate catagory as well? How about intentional vehicular homicide? Bludgeoning? Get the point? By focusing only on gun-related deaths, you've already formed an opinion against guns. ;)
 
You miss the point entirely. In Bowling For Columbine Moore compares gunshot deaths, and in the two semi reliable set of figure I got I compare all murders. I don't think Moore's point was ever get rifd of guns. He just seems to push the fact that we are a violent society, and ask why, and seek answers. Moore also proves out statistically that there is less gun death in Canada in proportion to the guns they have than there is here. I honestly don't think Moore would ban guns if he could but I am not him so I don't know. But I haven't formed any opinion about guns that I didn't have before this film.
 
This is a man worthy of our money & esteem.
M Moore said:
Take his description of his fellow countrymen and their blind pursuit of the American Dream: "They are possibly the dumbest people on the planet... in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug pricks.

"We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing. National Geographic produced a survey which showed that 60 per cent of 18-25 year olds don't know where Great Britain is on a map. And 92 per cent of us don't own a passport."
Click to expand...

Mirror
 
markjs said:
Moore also proves out statistically that there is less gun death in Canada in proportion to the guns they have than there is here.
Click to expand...

Allow me to point out that the large majority of guns in Canada reside in areas with population densities under one person per square mile. Where your closest neighbour is also a gun owner. And children are trained in the safe use of said firearms.

Apples and oranges, sunshine.
 
markjs said:
You miss the point entirely. In Bowling For Columbine Moore compares gunshot deaths, and in the two semi reliable set of figure I got I compare all murders. I don't think Moore's point was ever get rifd of guns. He just seems to push the fact that we are a violent society, and ask why, and seek answers. Moore also proves out statistically that there is less gun death in Canada in proportion to the guns they have than there is here. I honestly don't think Moore would ban guns if he could but I am not him so I don't know. But I haven't formed any opinion about guns that I didn't have before this film.
Click to expand...

And you said I missed the point? Better read that again, because that was for both your posts on the movie in this thread, and your post on the statistics by the FBI. It was also a caution to check your source before you post those statistics. ;)
 
Gato_Solo said:
And that's why there are 3 catagories of lies...

1. Lies
2. Damned lies
3. Statistics
Click to expand...
:grinyes:

IMHO, Michael Moore is a muckraking fat-ass. He is a shining example of how calculated misinformation leads the ignorant masses around by the nose. And I lean pretty far to the left, I can't imagine what Gonz thinks of him ;).
 
:ihi:

Of course the nature of that hit would be of a completely different nature :D

If he would only take the title "Documentary" from his preconceived iconoclastic bombardments of filth I'd just point & laugh like the next guy.



Today, being in a smart assed mood, I decided to tell my fellow employee's & the poor unsuspecting clients I visited, in a loud, boisterous & unequivocable voice that I believed Michael Moore should be King, a majority said...


Michael Who? :rofl4:
 
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