Bush/Pentagon Condone Torture

charliekola

Window Licker
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2776

Pentagon Memo Legitimizing Torture
March 6, 2003
The Wall Street Journal has released the text of the now-infamous March 6, 2003 Defense Department memo regarding legal liability for torture. The conclusions reached advised President Bush and Pentagon officials that prohibitions against torture do not apply to the "war on terrorism."

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Located here on PDF format

http://antiwar.com/rep/military_0604.pdf

Why exactly has this guy not been impeached yet?
 
Save lives & torture those who intended to kill our soldiers....I vote whatever it takes.
 
yup, torture them, that will make the rest of the people feel like they should trust us, and embrace democracy, in an illegal invasion.

Great idea.
Spawn more terrorists.
 
One problem gonz: They didn't bother to differentiate between Mr Scary Terrorist Dude and Joe Blow, when they picked 'em up off the street. Something tells me that wrongful imprisonment, and torture ain't a good mix for making new friends in iraq. :shrug:
 
BoP...we had a serious discussion on this at the time the photo's were released. This is nothing more than wasting time until my dinner is ready.
 
:winkkiss:

Hmmm, and which President held the office 40 yrs. ago? Could, could it, could it be a Democrat?

Iraq Tactics Have Long History With U.S. Interrogators

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 13, 2004; Page A08

A CIA handbook on coercive interrogation methods, produced 40 years ago during the Vietnam War, shows that techniques such as those used in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have a long history with U.S. intelligence and were based on research and field experience.

Declassified 10 years ago, the training manual carries in its title the code word used for the CIA in Vietnam, "KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation -- July 1963." Used to train new interrogators, the handbook presents "basic information about coercive techniques available for use in the interrogation situation."

The specific coercive methods it describes echo today's news stories about Guantanamo and the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. At Abu Ghraib, for example, photographs and documents have shown that detainees were hooded, blindfolded, dressed in sloppy garb and forced to go naked.

The KUBARK manual suggests that, for "resistant" prisoners, the "circumstances of detention are arranged to enhance within the subject his feelings of being cut off from the known and the reassuring and of being plunged into the strange."

The 1963 handbook describes the benefits and disadvantages of techniques similar to those authorized for use at Abu Ghraib, such as forcing detainees to stand or sit in "stress positions," cutting off sources of light, disrupting their sleep and manipulating their diet.

And among the manual's conclusions: The threat of pain is a far more effective interrogation tool than actually inflicting pain, but threats of death do not help.

Like the lists of interrogation methods approved for Iraq and Guantanamo, the KUBARK manual offers a menu of options for confusing and weakening detainees. A neat or proud individual was to be given an outfit one or two sizes too large without a belt "so that he must hold his pants up," the manual said. Forced changes in diet and sleep patterns should be done "so that the subject becomes disorientated [and] is very likely to create feelings of fear and helplessness."

Tactics involving deprivation of accustomed sights, sounds, taste, smells and tactile sensations were presented as primary methods for producing stress, and mirror the techniques seen at Abu Ghraib. Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the top U.S. military officer in Iraq, approved in September a list of methods that included "sensory deprivation," "minimum bread and water," "light control," enforced silence and yelling at prisoners. Those methods have since been barred in Iraq.

The KUBARK manual cited research supporting the effectiveness of the deprivations. "Results produced only after weeks or months of imprisonment in an ordinary cell can be duplicated in hours or days in a cell which has no light or weak artificial light which never varies, which is sound-proofed, and in which odors are eliminated," the manual said.

An experiment referred to in the handbook was done in the 1950s and involved conditions designed to produce stress before an interrogation -- similar to those applied to John Walker Lindh after his capture in Afghanistan. Lindh was tied to a stretcher naked and later held for long periods in a large metal container.

In the experiment done about 50 years earlier, volunteers were "placed in a tank-type respirator" with vents open so that the subjects could breathe but their arms and legs were enclosed in "rigid cylinders to inhibit movement and tactile contact." Lying on their backs in minimal artificial light, the subjects could not see their own bodies, and the respirator motor was the only sound.

Only six of the 17 volunteers completed the 36 hours of the experiment; the other 11 asked for early release -- four because of anxiety and panic, and the others because of physical discomfort.

The conclusion reached, the handbook said, was that "the early effect of such an environment is anxiety" and that "the stress becomes unbearable for most subjects," some of whom "lose touch with reality [and] focus inwardly."

The payoff of such techniques, the manual said, is that when the interrogator appears, he or she appears as a "reward of lessened anxiety . . . providing relief for growing discomfort," and that sometimes, as a result, "the questioner assumes a benevolent role."

When it comes to torture, however, the handbook advised that "the threat to inflict pain . . . can trigger fears more damaging than the immediate sensation of pain."

"In general, direct physical brutality creates only resentment, hostility and further defiance," the manual said.

Intense pain, interrogators were taught, "is quite likely to produce false confessions concocted as a means of escaping from distress."

While pain inflicted by others tends to create resistance in a subject, the manual said, "his resistance is likelier to be sapped by pain which he seems to inflict upon himself."

Reports from Iraq and Afghanistan indicate that detainees have been told to stand at attention for long periods or sit in "stress positions." In one of the photographs from Abu Ghraib, a hooded detainee is shown being forced to stand on a box with wires attached to his body. He was told he would get an electric shock if he moved. Seven military police soldiers have been charged in connection with the abuse shown in that and other photographs. Investigations continue into the role military interrogators played in those incidents.

In such situations, the manual said, the source of pain "is not the interrogator but the victim himself." And while the subject remains in that uncomfortable or painful position, he must be made to think that his captor could do something worse to him, creating in him the stress and anxiety the interrogator seeks.

Threats of death, however, were described as "worse than useless" because they can leave the prisoner thinking "that he is as likely to be condemned after compliance as before."

Experiments at that time also showed that creating physical weakness through prolonged exertion, extremes of heat, cold or moisture, or through drastic reduction of food or sleep do not work.

"The available evidence suggests that resistance is sapped principally by psychological rather than physical pressures," the handbook advised.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37340-2004Jun12.html
 
Don't Torture your enemies love them

Winky: As long as I live I will never understand them Libby's
Winky: Just cannot do it It's like living a lie!
ResearchMonkey: After dealing with delusional people for a number of years I can easily see it
Winky: Well I suppose that might make it possible to understand. I have met some screwy folks in my time but never any that were certifiable. But these millions and millions of Dem voters can't all be insane?
Winky: They must simply be voluntarily deluding themselves
 
If it's OK for us to torture Arabs I don't want to hear any crying about the injustices committed against Americans. It's all wrong. It's wrong for us to torture arabs and it's wrong for them to kill us and two wrongs will never make a right.

We are supposed to be held to a higher standard. If we are to be the policemen of the world we ought to set an example.
 
Brother, the California prison/jail systems does stuff like that everyday.

Ever hear of cavity search? Some prisoners get those daily. I've seen men held down with extreme-prejudice and have their butts pulled open just to peek in it with a mag-light.


(BTW, My old job sometimes required me to visit level-4 inmates, so don't go there)
 
U.S. troops need to use any measures necessary to elicit information from prisoners to ensure U.S. safety in Iraq. Meaning if prisoner Muhammad knows when the next RPG will be aimed at a Humvee containing U.S. troops and they just a smirking trigger pull away from death, shouldn't Muhammad be convinced by any means to disclose this information? Or, if Wafeeq knows when the next American hostage will get his head sawed off, shouldn't we know, too? Or maybe Abdul-Rasheed personally knows when bin Laden will pay a visit to Iraq--Lynndie England and her leash is the perfect choice here.


The Occupying Power may, however, subject the population of the occupied territory to provisions which are essential to enable the Occupying Power to fulfil its obligations under the present Convention, to maintain the orderly government of the territory, and to ensure the security of the Occupying Power, of the members and property of the occupying forces or administration, and likewise of the establishments and lines of communication used by them. (Article 64 of Geneva Convention IV)
 
The Other One said:
U.S. troops need to use any measures necessary to elicit information from prisoners to ensure U.S. safety in Iraq. Meaning if prisoner Muhammad knows when the next RPG will be aimed at a Humvee containing U.S. troops and they just a smirking trigger pull away from death, shouldn't Muhammad be convinced by any means to disclose this information? Or, if Wafeeq knows when the next American hostage will get his head sawed off, shouldn't we know, too? Or maybe Abdul-Rasheed personally knows when bin Laden will pay a visit to Iraq--Lynndie England and her leash is the perfect choice here.
What if prisoner Mohammad knows SFA about what's going to happen in the next day, or week, or month...or 2 years for that matter. What's the point of torturing him? How many common soldiers do you think know the whole plan? How many terrorists actually know what they'll be doing in the next week. Hell.... you can ask Gato if he knows what everyone in his troop will be doing next week...or other troops for that matter. I'd bet that he wouldn't know.

Now...if you catch yourself an organizer...a higher-up, and ask him what's happeneing in the next week...that info might be on the ball, or close to it...but then again...if one of my higher ups got captured by the enemy, you can bet that any and all plans that he was involved in will be changed if at all possible.

So...you're basically torturing them for the jollies.
 
The Other One said:
The Occupying Power may, however, subject the population of the occupied territory to provisions which are essential to enable the Occupying Power to fulfil its obligations under the present Convention, to maintain the orderly government of the territory, and to ensure the security of the Occupying Power, of the members and property of the occupying forces or administration, and likewise of the establishments and lines of communication used by them. (Article 64 of Geneva Convention IV)

"to provisions"
To me that says ,they can limit there movement i.e. certain areas offlimits and a curfew ,disabling phonelines ,it in no way infers that the occupying force may "inflict " anything.
 
MrBishop said:
. . . . How many common soldiers do you think know the whole plan? How many terrorists actually know what they'll be doing in the next week. Hell.... you can ask Gato if he knows what everyone in his troop will be doing next week...or other troops for that matter. I'd bet that he wouldn't know. . . . .

Now...if you catch yourself an organizer...a higher-up, and ask him what's happeneing in the next week...that info might be on the ball, or close to it...but then again...if one of my higher ups got captured by the enemy, you can bet that any and all plans that he was involved in will be changed if at all possible.

So...you're basically torturing them for the jollies.

If you catch 7 men, that you suspect to have critical information, you 'werk all 7 of them. The prisoners will each give their version, some will be lies, some will be truth. You then cross reference the individual testimonies and then deduce the most likely scenario. Using the new information that seems most reasonable, you use it further push the 7 to get even more information. rinse, lather, repeat.

Then begins the :"your buddy already told on you, he said you were the one making all the plans . . . . "


You dont call one persons admission "Intel", it takes confimation.
 
ResearchMonkey said:
If you catch 7 men, that you suspect to have critical information, you 'werk all 7 of them. The prisoners will each give their version, some will be lies, some will be truth. You then cross reference the individual testimonies and then deduce the most likely scenario. Using the new information that seems most reasonable, you use it further push the 7 to get even more information. rinse, lather, repeat.

Then begins the :"your buddy already told on you, he said you were the one making all the plans . . . . "


You dont call one persons admission "Intel", it takes confimation.

By using that same logic ,asking seven Frontline American soldiers what the US Warplan is will get you correct intel??? They arten't going to know the big picture or even anything beyond defend this location ,they won't neccessarily know why the location is important or how long they are expected to defend the location.

Iraqi fighters may have no more direction or incentive than go shoot Americans and that direction may be no more than heard on the street ,hardly valuable intel.Unless you get a higher up ,and even an organized operation like the US only has a "Only on a need to know basis" with regard to operations what sort of of info would a common street thug be able to provide that makes putting future US captives in jeopardy by setting precedence.
 
Thats nots my logic, thats how its done, by us anyway.

You may not get "the plan" but you get little pieces, you collect the thousands of little pieces and make your best educated guess. You don't always get the playbook handed to you.

That is the nature of information gathering in war.
 
ResearchMonkey said:
Thats nots my logic, thats how its done, by us anyway.

You may not get "the plan" but you get little pieces, you collect the thousands of little pieces and make your best educated guess. You don't always get the playbook handed to you.

That is the nature of information gathering in war.
That works well in police situations, with smaller groups, but in the majority of these cases...it's small independant groups. They're related in the same cause, but not the same method. What I'm saying is that the information that you are likely to get will be so disjointed that it will be nigh impossible to construct even an educated guess. (ie. Over the next 2-3 weeks, about 10 suicide bombers are planning attacks somewhere in Baghdad) - hell...I can tell you as much by reading the NY Times.

Here's something to ponder. You've captured more than a common soldier, more than a mid-rank officer...you've captured several Generals AND the Grand Poobah himself, Saddam Hussein. I'm sure that these people are being pushed. Probably not as hard as the common soldier would've been because of the repurcusions from the press, but still. I would bet that there's precious little concrete information that you're getting from them. Not because they're that hard a nut to crack..they're human. Push hard enough and they'll crack, but because you're dealing with a Guerilla Organization, it's scattered enough that this kind of information is next to useless.

Now...don't get me wrong. Intel is VERY important to the success of any operation, but in this case..this kind of HumInt isn't working. Time to go back to satellites.
 
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