Canada is not a communist country, really!
- Thread starter Winky
- Start date
MrBishop
Well-Known Member
Consider it this way... if private health-care clinics are allowed to open up (there already are plenty out there...hell, i'm using one for MrsBish's ultrasound) ... then Doctors, who have limits on where they can work and how much they can earn, will leave the public practices and go 'private'. We already have issues with lack of nurses and doctors in our system. That's related to the stupid rules set about 20 years ago re: the number of Drs and nurses allowed to participate in the programs at Universities. Now, we're facing a failing system and long waiting times because of massive shortages...not in space (hospitals), but in staff. Opening up private clinics won't help...we still only have X# of Drs and nurses...whether you have them all in the public system or you spit them up between public and private. Its 6 of one and a half-dozen of the other.
What it WILL do is this... those who have private health-insurance or a lot of cash, will go to the private clinics and have shorter lineups. Those who don't have private health-insurance will face longer lineups.
Combine that with a lowering of staff in the public system and the majority of the populace will be worst off in a two-tiered system than in the crumbling 'everyone has equal access' system.
*Personally...I like the fact that during my apendectomy, I spent 2 days in hospital, plus medication, plus food, TV in my room etc etc...and follow up.
AND I didn't have to mortgage my house to pay for it all...in fact, it cost me exactly $0.00. I think that this is something worth saving.
BTW...how much do you pay per month for your health insurance, Winky?
What it WILL do is this... those who have private health-insurance or a lot of cash, will go to the private clinics and have shorter lineups. Those who don't have private health-insurance will face longer lineups.
Combine that with a lowering of staff in the public system and the majority of the populace will be worst off in a two-tiered system than in the crumbling 'everyone has equal access' system.
*Personally...I like the fact that during my apendectomy, I spent 2 days in hospital, plus medication, plus food, TV in my room etc etc...and follow up.
AND I didn't have to mortgage my house to pay for it all...in fact, it cost me exactly $0.00. I think that this is something worth saving.
BTW...how much do you pay per month for your health insurance, Winky?
If I lived just north of the country that INVESTED billions of dollars each year into health care advances, I'd want a public(free) system too. But I assure you, whatever I pay in health insurance each year you pay as well, or perhaps someone slightlier wealthier than you does. Someone much wealthier than you pays much more than I do, they may not call it Health Insurance on the paystub, but I assure you, it's there.
Winky
Well-Known Member
Ya know...
When the horrible right wing capitalist monsters in this country rail against 'socialized' medicine one of the things they pull outta their ass is the mantra:
“How would you like to live in a country where it was illegal
to practice private medicine?"
One thing that article opened my eyes too is that most countries that have "free for everyone" medicine don't make it illegal to practice private medicine, just not very profitable
except canada that is...
Reducing doctors to the status of low paid government workers is a sure fire way to get a low quality product witness the American public school system.
But at least here we have the option to rise far enough economically to afford private school for our children and in that process by that rising in the financial scheme of things
our medical care is free i.e. included by virtue of medical insurance.
Even those in this country that can not afford medical care
are provided for, as a matter of fact it is the law!!!
The illegal aliens love it!
And when they get to the emergency room they aren’t cared for by third rate
government workers but the second tier of the greatest medical industry in the entire world!
Oh and Bish there's no reason to boast about having those high taxes.
Perhaps if you didn't get taxed to death, your economy would provide enough opportunity for you to rise to the point that you could easily afford quality medical care for your family. Either way, at least you'd not be shouldering the burden for all your fellow canuckians?
When the horrible right wing capitalist monsters in this country rail against 'socialized' medicine one of the things they pull outta their ass is the mantra:
“How would you like to live in a country where it was illegal
to practice private medicine?"
One thing that article opened my eyes too is that most countries that have "free for everyone" medicine don't make it illegal to practice private medicine, just not very profitable
except canada that is...
Reducing doctors to the status of low paid government workers is a sure fire way to get a low quality product witness the American public school system.
But at least here we have the option to rise far enough economically to afford private school for our children and in that process by that rising in the financial scheme of things
our medical care is free i.e. included by virtue of medical insurance.
Even those in this country that can not afford medical care
are provided for, as a matter of fact it is the law!!!
The illegal aliens love it!
And when they get to the emergency room they aren’t cared for by third rate
government workers but the second tier of the greatest medical industry in the entire world!
Oh and Bish there's no reason to boast about having those high taxes.
Perhaps if you didn't get taxed to death, your economy would provide enough opportunity for you to rise to the point that you could easily afford quality medical care for your family. Either way, at least you'd not be shouldering the burden for all your fellow canuckians?
markjs
Banned
I don't think anybody in the United States expects outright socialized medicine, rather what we'd like to see (some of us anyway) is affordable healthcare for the common man. That's something conservative forces will stop at nothing to block. While it's true that if you go into a hospital bleeding to death they are required to treat you, you are still required to pay for it regardless of your financial situation or hardships and you are required to pay full price. The powers that be will take title to your possesions, including your place to live in some states if you cannot pay. There really should be a way in the richest nation in the world that we can all afford a reasonable standard of healthcare, but alas there is not, and I believe there never will be due to the greed factor.
MrBishop
Well-Known Member
Couldn't agree with you more Markjs...
I have a story, boys and girls. A friend of mine was visiting family in New York. Her son got sick while down there and was rushed to the hospital. He's got lymphoblastic leukemia...I posted some details here.
He was too weak to move or medivac to Montreal, so they treated him in Mt. Sinai until he could be moved safely to Montreal. Took just shy of 1 month. Total bill $2.3million USD!!!
Now... she's fucked..totally fucked! She's got her son who's alive...he still undergoes treatments in Montreal (gratis) for the leuchemia and the testicular cancer, but $2.3mil in the hole is nothing to laugh at.
I'm assuming that Medical Insurance is similar to other types of insurance. You have a deductible, not everything is covered and the main duty of the insurer is to NOT pay you a penny unless they absolutely HAVE to, and even then...you'd better be damn skilled at leaping through loopholes and dodging lawyers to get anything remotely fair. In the meanwhile, you're dumping `$750/month into an insurance plan. I know that I don't pay that much...I don't have to deal with insurance agents and fill out paperwork. I swipe my card and all is well. Period.
Winky - the whole point of the article is that private clinics cannot be stopped from existing. It was deemed unconstitutional.
http://www.otcentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11289&highlight=leuchemia
I have a story, boys and girls. A friend of mine was visiting family in New York. Her son got sick while down there and was rushed to the hospital. He's got lymphoblastic leukemia...I posted some details here.
He was too weak to move or medivac to Montreal, so they treated him in Mt. Sinai until he could be moved safely to Montreal. Took just shy of 1 month. Total bill $2.3million USD!!!
Now... she's fucked..totally fucked! She's got her son who's alive...he still undergoes treatments in Montreal (gratis) for the leuchemia and the testicular cancer, but $2.3mil in the hole is nothing to laugh at.
I'm assuming that Medical Insurance is similar to other types of insurance. You have a deductible, not everything is covered and the main duty of the insurer is to NOT pay you a penny unless they absolutely HAVE to, and even then...you'd better be damn skilled at leaping through loopholes and dodging lawyers to get anything remotely fair. In the meanwhile, you're dumping `$750/month into an insurance plan. I know that I don't pay that much...I don't have to deal with insurance agents and fill out paperwork. I swipe my card and all is well. Period.
Winky - the whole point of the article is that private clinics cannot be stopped from existing. It was deemed unconstitutional.
http://www.otcentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11289&highlight=leuchemia
Winky
Well-Known Member
I guess your friend better thank GOD (or the US)
that her Son was saved by Mt. Sinai (one of the finest
hospitals in our country). She's not even a fricken citizen
and we saved her Son for FREE!!! What if they'd said:
you ain't got American medical insurance,
you ain't a citizen and you sure haven't got 2.3 Million dollars!!!
Get the hell outta here and go back to Turkey!
Let the doctors that get paid as much as a Walgreens
employee save him.
No they saved her Son and let her skip back across the border lollolololol
-------------
Canadas doctors flock south
Culture/Society Front Page News Keywords: HILLARY MEDICAL PLAN CANADA DOCTORS
Source: MS-NBC
Published: June 2000 Author: DR. TOMMASO FALCONE
A REPORT last month by the federal government agency, Statistics Canada, said that employees of hospitals (as well as universities) were among the most likely public sector employees to emigrate. And, studies conducted by the Canadian Medical Association said that in the mid- to late-1990s, on average about 400 doctors a year left Canada for the United States — triple the rate a decade earlier.
“In 1996, for example, 731 physicians left Canada. Although another 218 doctors returned, the net loss was 513 physicians,” the CMA said in an October report. That number decreased in 1998 to a net loss of 248 Canadian doctors, the report continued, but that still is a sizeable chunk of the 1,600 annual graduates of the country’s 16 medical schools.
The exodus of nurses was even more striking, with over 800 departing annually in 1996 and 1997, up from 330 in the late 1980s, medical experts say.
Indeed, experts say physicians and nurses represent one of the biggest brain trade imbalances between the two countries, with nearly 20 doctors and more than 15 nurses, heading south for every one of those professionals who heads north from America to Canada.
Dr. Tommaso Falcone, a gynecologist, left his staff position at Montreal’s Jewish General Hospital in 1995 when he was recruited by the Cleveland Clinic Foundation to be part of their new, high tech surgery team.
“Doctors are well-trained in Canada, and patients get uniform, excellent care,” he explained, “but there are very few opportunities to do high tech research. That’s what attracted me,” he said.
Providing uniform, government-financed, free care for all, particularly at a time when governments are striving to cut costs and taxes, means the Canadian system is always straining under a financial choke collar, he said.
Dr. Kirk Anderson has developed a slight Texas twang since he began working at the Four Oaks Medical Center in Columbus, Tex. in 1980. But Texans, he said, still think he “talks funny” because his native accent comes from Nova Scotia.
Anderson said he’s “not the kind of guy who ever thought I’d leave my country, but I could no longer practice in the Canadian system.”
While most emigrating doctors, including Anderson, cite the lack of resources available in the Canadian system to properly treat their patients as the main reason for heading south, money is also a factor.
‘Doctors are well-trained in Canada, and patients get uniform, excellent care... but there are very few opportunities to do high tech research. That’s what attracted me,’
— DR. TOMMASO FALCONE
In Canada, virtually all the country’s physicians are paid by the universal, government-operated health insurance system in each of the 10 provinces, and each provincial government sets its own fee schedule. Back in Nova Scotia, Anderson said he was paid US$4.42 if he saw a patient in his office, $3.06 if he did the exam in a hospital emergency room, and $10.20 if he did “a complete work up.” But if another doctor had done a similar work-up in the previous 12 months, the fee dropped back to $4.42.
His average annual income then was $28,500 compared to the $120,000 he earns now.
The dismal payment structure, he explained, is because Nova Scotia is one of Canada’s poorer provinces, although the higher pay scale in provinces like Quebec only amount to a few dollars more.
Because of this, recruitment of Canadian doctors by U.S. healthcare providers has become very aggressive, he said, noting that when he left Canada, “out of the 1,800 people who graduated medical school that year, 600 left” Canada for the United States.
Since then, he added, “things have gotten worse.”
Dr. Hugh Scully, president of the Canadian Medical Association, said Canada is suffering “a very serious” brain drain of doctors, with 50 percent of medical school graduates leaving the country within 10 years of graduation and 25 percent more leaving within 15 years of earning their medical degree.
Of those, 75 percent cite the lack of proper resources available to do their jobs as the main reason, he said. Government cut-backs in health care funding in the past decade, he explained, have left the nation with shortages in everything from hospital beds and operating rooms to CAT scans and Magnetic Resonance Imagers.
Canada now has “fewer MRI scanners per capita than Turkey,” said Dr. Albert Schumaker, president of the Ontario Medical Association.
In addition to lacking medical hardware, the country is also “desperately short” of pediatricians, anesthesiologists, obstetricians, psychiatrists and radiologists, Scully added.
The problem, Schumaker said, will likely get worse in the coming years because of government short-sightedness. In an effort to cut medical spending, which amounts to about one-quarter of every province’s budget, medical school spaces were cut by 17 percent even as Canada’s population was growing by more than 250,000 people a year, and baby boomers aged into the medical high-use years.
“That reduction left Canadian students with the fewest opportunities to enter medical school in the developed world,” Scully said.
While Canadians still rank their health care system as their most cherished government program, Scully, citing an OECD study, said the nation’s shortage of modern technology now ranks it dead last among the eight wealthiest industrial nations, and 13th among the top 17 developed countries in the availability of modern diagnostic equipment.
Another area of concern to medical planners is that 50 percent of Canadian medical school graduates are women under 35 years old. Along with the likelihood these women will eventually take time off to bear and raise children, until recently, most Canadian recruitment efforts, unlike their American counterparts, ignored the need to find jobs for the doctors’ spouses.
In an attempt to redress the physician outflow, Canada has been drawing doctors from other countries. But even in this effort, cut backs in positions of those able to monitor the academic abilities of potential immigrant physicians, has slowed this alternative, Scully explained.
Despite this, Scully insisted he is “optimistic” about the future of Canada’s health care system, noting federal and provincial governments are moving to address the problem and some provinces are finally starting to open up more spots in medical schools.
that her Son was saved by Mt. Sinai (one of the finest
hospitals in our country). She's not even a fricken citizen
and we saved her Son for FREE!!! What if they'd said:
you ain't got American medical insurance,
you ain't a citizen and you sure haven't got 2.3 Million dollars!!!
Get the hell outta here and go back to Turkey!
Let the doctors that get paid as much as a Walgreens
employee save him.
No they saved her Son and let her skip back across the border lollolololol
-------------
Canadas doctors flock south
Culture/Society Front Page News Keywords: HILLARY MEDICAL PLAN CANADA DOCTORS
Source: MS-NBC
Published: June 2000 Author: DR. TOMMASO FALCONE
A REPORT last month by the federal government agency, Statistics Canada, said that employees of hospitals (as well as universities) were among the most likely public sector employees to emigrate. And, studies conducted by the Canadian Medical Association said that in the mid- to late-1990s, on average about 400 doctors a year left Canada for the United States — triple the rate a decade earlier.
“In 1996, for example, 731 physicians left Canada. Although another 218 doctors returned, the net loss was 513 physicians,” the CMA said in an October report. That number decreased in 1998 to a net loss of 248 Canadian doctors, the report continued, but that still is a sizeable chunk of the 1,600 annual graduates of the country’s 16 medical schools.
The exodus of nurses was even more striking, with over 800 departing annually in 1996 and 1997, up from 330 in the late 1980s, medical experts say.
Indeed, experts say physicians and nurses represent one of the biggest brain trade imbalances between the two countries, with nearly 20 doctors and more than 15 nurses, heading south for every one of those professionals who heads north from America to Canada.
Dr. Tommaso Falcone, a gynecologist, left his staff position at Montreal’s Jewish General Hospital in 1995 when he was recruited by the Cleveland Clinic Foundation to be part of their new, high tech surgery team.
“Doctors are well-trained in Canada, and patients get uniform, excellent care,” he explained, “but there are very few opportunities to do high tech research. That’s what attracted me,” he said.
Providing uniform, government-financed, free care for all, particularly at a time when governments are striving to cut costs and taxes, means the Canadian system is always straining under a financial choke collar, he said.
Dr. Kirk Anderson has developed a slight Texas twang since he began working at the Four Oaks Medical Center in Columbus, Tex. in 1980. But Texans, he said, still think he “talks funny” because his native accent comes from Nova Scotia.
Anderson said he’s “not the kind of guy who ever thought I’d leave my country, but I could no longer practice in the Canadian system.”
While most emigrating doctors, including Anderson, cite the lack of resources available in the Canadian system to properly treat their patients as the main reason for heading south, money is also a factor.
‘Doctors are well-trained in Canada, and patients get uniform, excellent care... but there are very few opportunities to do high tech research. That’s what attracted me,’
— DR. TOMMASO FALCONE
In Canada, virtually all the country’s physicians are paid by the universal, government-operated health insurance system in each of the 10 provinces, and each provincial government sets its own fee schedule. Back in Nova Scotia, Anderson said he was paid US$4.42 if he saw a patient in his office, $3.06 if he did the exam in a hospital emergency room, and $10.20 if he did “a complete work up.” But if another doctor had done a similar work-up in the previous 12 months, the fee dropped back to $4.42.
His average annual income then was $28,500 compared to the $120,000 he earns now.
The dismal payment structure, he explained, is because Nova Scotia is one of Canada’s poorer provinces, although the higher pay scale in provinces like Quebec only amount to a few dollars more.
Because of this, recruitment of Canadian doctors by U.S. healthcare providers has become very aggressive, he said, noting that when he left Canada, “out of the 1,800 people who graduated medical school that year, 600 left” Canada for the United States.
Since then, he added, “things have gotten worse.”
Dr. Hugh Scully, president of the Canadian Medical Association, said Canada is suffering “a very serious” brain drain of doctors, with 50 percent of medical school graduates leaving the country within 10 years of graduation and 25 percent more leaving within 15 years of earning their medical degree.
Of those, 75 percent cite the lack of proper resources available to do their jobs as the main reason, he said. Government cut-backs in health care funding in the past decade, he explained, have left the nation with shortages in everything from hospital beds and operating rooms to CAT scans and Magnetic Resonance Imagers.
Canada now has “fewer MRI scanners per capita than Turkey,” said Dr. Albert Schumaker, president of the Ontario Medical Association.
In addition to lacking medical hardware, the country is also “desperately short” of pediatricians, anesthesiologists, obstetricians, psychiatrists and radiologists, Scully added.
The problem, Schumaker said, will likely get worse in the coming years because of government short-sightedness. In an effort to cut medical spending, which amounts to about one-quarter of every province’s budget, medical school spaces were cut by 17 percent even as Canada’s population was growing by more than 250,000 people a year, and baby boomers aged into the medical high-use years.
“That reduction left Canadian students with the fewest opportunities to enter medical school in the developed world,” Scully said.
While Canadians still rank their health care system as their most cherished government program, Scully, citing an OECD study, said the nation’s shortage of modern technology now ranks it dead last among the eight wealthiest industrial nations, and 13th among the top 17 developed countries in the availability of modern diagnostic equipment.
Another area of concern to medical planners is that 50 percent of Canadian medical school graduates are women under 35 years old. Along with the likelihood these women will eventually take time off to bear and raise children, until recently, most Canadian recruitment efforts, unlike their American counterparts, ignored the need to find jobs for the doctors’ spouses.
In an attempt to redress the physician outflow, Canada has been drawing doctors from other countries. But even in this effort, cut backs in positions of those able to monitor the academic abilities of potential immigrant physicians, has slowed this alternative, Scully explained.
Despite this, Scully insisted he is “optimistic” about the future of Canada’s health care system, noting federal and provincial governments are moving to address the problem and some provinces are finally starting to open up more spots in medical schools.
A.B.Normal
New Member
Well it looks like they're(Government) doing something right
http://www.canada.com/victoria/chtv/story.html?id=ccf62835-2ae4-406f-b341-c6edb1551633
http://www.canada.com/victoria/chtv/story.html?id=ccf62835-2ae4-406f-b341-c6edb1551633
Winky
Well-Known Member
Daumn Dood!
You just solved the whole Canadian medical insurance issue
have everyone march in the streets in protest until they put
these guys in charge of the medicine in Canada!
You just solved the whole Canadian medical insurance issue
have everyone march in the streets in protest until they put
these guys in charge of the medicine in Canada!
MrBishop
Well-Known Member
Free? Not likely... the Diocese is helping her out some...her house is gone now. The Can GVT is helpng a bit Granted, she may never finish paying off the 2.3Mill ... but she's hardly skipping out. Yes...she has her son and he's still alive but...if it'd happened in Montreal, she'd have gone to either the McGill University Health Centre,or the Childrens' . Both in the top-10 for Canada...and free.Winky said:
We can argue it out till we're blue in the face. Basically...we like the system... it ain't perfect, but nothing is. If its in our future to go two-tier... that's what'll happen.
freako104
Well-Known Member
MrBishop said:
I guess I owe an apology to you since I pictured it as
whoever gets there fist gets cared for. Also pictured massive lines to get care. So I am sorry that I saw it from the perspective of it being a good idea but like so many would be fucked by the way its run
Winky
Well-Known Member
Oh gee this thread began with a link:
Yet, the court actually split — three to three — as to whether the killer waits of the nationalized health care system also violated the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. So, at least for now, the ruling only applies in the province of Quebec.
Still, most experts seem to think this ruling will likely be expanded through lawsuits in the other provinces. Lorne Sossin, dean of the University of Toronto law school argues, "The language of the ruling will encourage more and more lawsuits and those suits have a greater likelihood of success in light of this ruling."
Leaders of the various provinces have long sought to allow health care alternatives, but they've found themselves with all the freedoms of a cat writhing in a sack. As The New York Times reported, "The federal government has threatened to hold back financial aid to provinces that press ahead with private health care. . . ."
But since Quebec, by court order, cannot prevent private medicine, the cat is now out of the bag. As Dr. Chaoulli pointedly asked, "How could you imagine that Quebeckers may live and the English Canadian has to die?"
Chaoulli, according the The Times, "has long been viewed as a gadfly in political and medical circles." In 1997, he went on a hunger strike after authorities forced him to abandon a private emergency house call service. (Wouldn't you like to find a family doctor with some of this gadfly stuff in him?) It seems that Canada's nationalized medical establishment has fought a long life-and-death battle against individual initiative in health care.
Enter Prime Minister Paul Martin. He sees the ruling, as well as the necessary response, quite differently. He's trying to re-bag that cat. Pooh-poohing the idea that Canada must permit private health care, Martin said, "What today's decision does do, however, is accentuate just how important it is to act immediately, how urgent this situation is."
-------------
Doesn't sound like a 'two tier system" to me.
Hope they get it figgered out and entice their physicians back from the States before you need care.
Yet, the court actually split — three to three — as to whether the killer waits of the nationalized health care system also violated the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. So, at least for now, the ruling only applies in the province of Quebec.
Still, most experts seem to think this ruling will likely be expanded through lawsuits in the other provinces. Lorne Sossin, dean of the University of Toronto law school argues, "The language of the ruling will encourage more and more lawsuits and those suits have a greater likelihood of success in light of this ruling."
Leaders of the various provinces have long sought to allow health care alternatives, but they've found themselves with all the freedoms of a cat writhing in a sack. As The New York Times reported, "The federal government has threatened to hold back financial aid to provinces that press ahead with private health care. . . ."
But since Quebec, by court order, cannot prevent private medicine, the cat is now out of the bag. As Dr. Chaoulli pointedly asked, "How could you imagine that Quebeckers may live and the English Canadian has to die?"
Chaoulli, according the The Times, "has long been viewed as a gadfly in political and medical circles." In 1997, he went on a hunger strike after authorities forced him to abandon a private emergency house call service. (Wouldn't you like to find a family doctor with some of this gadfly stuff in him?) It seems that Canada's nationalized medical establishment has fought a long life-and-death battle against individual initiative in health care.
Enter Prime Minister Paul Martin. He sees the ruling, as well as the necessary response, quite differently. He's trying to re-bag that cat. Pooh-poohing the idea that Canada must permit private health care, Martin said, "What today's decision does do, however, is accentuate just how important it is to act immediately, how urgent this situation is."
-------------
Doesn't sound like a 'two tier system" to me.
Hope they get it figgered out and entice their physicians back from the States before you need care.
MrBishop
Well-Known Member
Yup... another seperation between the rich and the poor. As for getting physicians back from the states... that's a money issue. I'm not sure if allowing Docs that crossed the borders to open up private clinics here would be appealing enough. There aren't a whole lot of precedents for them to guage how much they might make as opposed to staying put.Winky said:
Winky
Well-Known Member
Thing is, poor in America means you have to drive a used car instead of a brand new SUV. You still have cable, color TV central air\heat microwave, broadband interent AND access to the finest medical care in the world.
Other than the native canadians just how poor are the poor in the great white north?
Other than the native canadians just how poor are the poor in the great white north?