Do people somehow desire burdens in order to feel human?

[IDLEchild]

Do people somehow desire burdens in order to feel human?

An excellent question to which I haven't found and answer. How does pain release you? I have found it to make me a worse person.

How is pain weakness leaving the body? How do I feel greater for having felt that pain...every time i recall that pain I only seemed to be tossed back into a temperament of aggression and avoidance. I have found pleasent experiences to make me stronger rather than the painful ones. It teaches good lessons but those lessons could have been better taught, no?

or is there a side I am not seeing to this? Does struggle and opposition really does define our humanity and society, or is it just our proclivity to be in a place of misery?

 

[Leslie]

I could go without incurring a new burden on my soul for a couple days

 

[IDLEchild]

I could go without incurring a new burden on my soul for a couple days

But have you found that the misery makes you more appreciative of the better times, the happiness?

 

[tonksy]

But have you found that the misery makes you more appreciative of the better times, the happiness?

well...yeah...cause you've seen the other side of the coin..but that doesn't mean that people welcome hard times...it's just that they seem inevitable so you might as well learn from them.

 

[MrBishop]

Do people somehow desire burdens in order to feel human?

An excellent question to which I haven't found and answer. How does pain release you? I have found it to make me a worse person.

How is pain weakness leaving the body? How do I feel greater for having felt that pain...every time i recall that pain I only seemed to be tossed back into a temperament of aggression and avoidance. I have found pleasent experiences to make me stronger rather than the painful ones. It teaches good lessons but those lessons could have been better taught, no?

or is there a side I am not seeing to this? Does struggle and opposition really does define our humanity and society, or is it just our proclivity to be in a place of misery?

Yet another excellent thread idea BCD/IC!!

I believe that pain and burdens, although not necessary, define our existance... that is, we can't see ourselves living without encountering some sort of opposition. We need something to rise above, an enemy to overthrow, an evil to fight and some pain

tbc

 

[IDLEchild]

Yet another excellent thread idea BCD/IC!!

I believe that pain and burdens, although not necessary, define our existance... that is, we can't see ourselves living without encountering some sort of opposition. We need something to rise above, an enemy to overthrow, an evil to fight and some pain

tbc

Why? That is what i want to know. Is it innate or a concious decision? if it is the latter than who chooses a life of misery to rise above?..rise above what?...to obtain honor and pride...seems foolish pride to me then.

I understand that shit happens but why believe in the ideology that pain makes you stronger? That trials tribulations define your very character and build fortitude....fortitude for what?...more trials tribulations....seems redundant to me.

A life of thought, courage and self learning is honorable to me and none of that has to come through pain.

 

[IDLEchild]

well...yeah...cause you've seen the other side of the coin..but that doesn't mean that people welcome hard times...it's just that they seem inevitable so you might as well learn from them.

True enough but the world seems to be stuck in the rigid mindset that all, true, learning must come from pain. Pain causes more damage than good. Is it simply lack of patience on our part to teach others with respect and a calm mind instead of letting them suffer and preach the same mantra that they learned through pain.

To me a man's worth is not measured by his tears and sweat but rather his humanity and as big of a part pain and sorrow helped shape of his life he in the end to me is a man who now knows life, but could have been taught with love and compassion the same lessons the stern hand of pain taught......

.....or worse...there was no other way to teach him other than the hardships?

 

[Ms Ann Thrope]

Pain and fear are very effective tools. And one can argue that there are always new lessons to be learned, as long as one draws breath. I don't believe you need pain to learn anything, but the fact remains that it seems to enter our lives to varying degrees, and one can either learn from the experience or not.

What angers me is the arbitrary nature of pain: so many worthy souls suffer a lifetime's worth, while countless selfish and greedy bastards coast along. And after a certain point, in my own personal life, I found myself finally just saying ENOUGH! To reject pain and fear means to avoid taking risk doesn't it? I've managed to avoid taking any risks for years. Probably not the best solution either.

 

[MrBishop]

cont'd -

Why associate pain with learning?
IMHO, because pain is unavoideable. You can seclude yourself from the general populace and live a hermits life and perhaps avoid social/economic/emotional pains, but not physical pains. You can go through great efforts to avoid pain of every type, but you will also have to avoid any other emotions. With every positive emotion that you are likely to face from the day you are born until the day that you die, you are as likely to meet with it's counterpart.

With great love comes the loss of the person(s) that you love. With great joy, comes the efforts needed to maintain it etc...

As unavoideable as pain may be to the comman man, it is not insurmounteable. Each of us can learn from the pain that we feel...learn how to avoid it in the future.

I don't think that we insist on feeling pain, and I seriously doubt that it's the only path to learning, but it is A path.

Does this answer your question or would you like to rephrase?

 

[IDLEchild]

cont'd -

Why associate pain with learning?
IMHO, because pain is unavoideable. You can seclude yourself from the general populace and live a hermits life and perhaps avoid social/economic/emotional pains, but not physical pains. You can go through great efforts to avoid pain of every type, but you will also have to avoid any other emotions. With every positive emotion that you are likely to face from the day you are born until the day that you die, you are as likely to meet with it's counterpart.

Entropy and its hand is all too apparent isn't it!!! Ofcourse pain can not be avioded and it would naive to think otherwise but I am more disheartned by those who introduce pain int otheir lives and others because they feel it makes man. Pain goes along with honor and pride and honor and pride can be a man's downfall, no?

With great love comes the loss of the person(s) that you love. With great joy, comes the efforts needed to maintain it etc...

That is a pain unavioded by all. That can not be helped.

As unavoideable as pain may be to the comman man, it is not insurmounteable. Each of us can learn from the pain that we feel...learn how to avoid it in the future.

But we do not learn and do not aviod. We fall victims to the same trap over and over and over....wars, genocide occur again and again and all of it is justified by the fact that "Humans define themselves through suffering"...that is an opinion, not a fact ergo not an excuse by any means

I don't think that we insist on feeling pain,

I disagree...i find humanity has a sick desire for melodrama and the tension and stress it brings with it. Some even admit to the sick notion that they love trouble and fighting.

and I seriously doubt that it's the only path to learning, but it is A path.

My problem is it is too often the most used path.

Does this answer your question or would you like to rephrase?

I never had any questions that I couldn't answer though i'd be reluctant to accept those answers since they came from me.

 

[Oz]

Do people somehow desire burdens in order to feel human?

Probably...........but we invented alcohol and canabis resin to even it out

 

[IDLEchild]

Pain and fear are very effective tools.

Too effective therefore used out of context.

And one can argue that there are always new lessons to be learned, as long as one draws breath. I don't believe you need pain to learn anything, but the fact remains that it seems to enter our lives to varying degrees, and one can either learn from the experience or not.

Exactly

What angers me is the arbitrary nature of pain: so many worthy souls suffer a lifetime's worth, while countless selfish and greedy bastards coast along.

The master and slave problem Nietzche discussed is all too apparent in this case.

And after a certain point, in my own personal life, I found myself finally just saying ENOUGH! To reject pain and fear means to avoid taking risk doesn't it?

Yes it does but adding unneccessary harm to one's life to feel strong is even more foolish and the new generation seems to be hell bent on doingthat.

I've managed to avoid taking any risks for years. Probably not the best solution either.

No, it really isn't. I do not condemn not condone the activites of anyone else but when faced with the same choice and i refuse I should not have to face ridicule by anyone because i don't stupidly choose to feel discomfort.

But running away is just as worse if not more.

 

[MrBishop]

So...what you want to know is why people seek pain or do little or nothing to avoid it or learn from it.

Consider it this way. It's passed on generationally from father to son*just phraseology* , by those who lived through tougher times and somehow feel that their progeny have it too easy. The previous generation sees the decrepitude of today's generations and feels that it's that it's because 'they havn't experienced life'...that is, they havn't suffered or worked hard for what they have.

If the 'no pain, no gain' ideology is passed on succesfully from father to son, but there is no immediate suffering (financial, emotional etc) to be had, would not the sons seek it out, thinking that they cannot learn without it?

Our generations have had it relativly easy. There have been no great depressions, no world wars, no mass-exoduses. The markets are relativly stable, unemployment is minimal in comparison to previous generations... so what happens? We create our own turmoils because we feel that it HAS to be this way.

The more that I write, the less that I feel I truly understand the depth of your question BCD/IC

 

[IDLEchild]

So...what you want to know is why people seek pain or do little or nothing to avoid it or learn from it.

Sadly enough I know why seeing them do this to themselves.

Consider it this way. It's passed on generationally from father to son*just phraseology* , by those who lived through tougher times and somehow feel that their progeny have it too easy. The previous generation sees the decrepitude of today's generations and feels that it's that it's because 'they havn't experienced life'...that is, they havn't suffered or worked hard for what they have.

And who gives them what they have?...the prior generation so who do they have to institutionalize the notion of a hardship life? "Spare the rod and spoil the child and then ride the child around in a SUV" sort of mentality is ludacris at best. Agreed that a child should be given responsibility to be a fully functioning adult in the given society but it shouldn't be the purpose of the parents to make his/her progeny realize,through hardships, what a fucker life is.

If the 'no pain, no gain' ideology is passed on succesfully from father to son, but there is no immediate suffering (financial, emotional etc) to be had, would not the sons seek it out, thinking that they cannot learn without it?

Funny, I see the child seeking out pain and harm to impress and gain acceptence within the given circle of peers, not neccessarily to learn and show their parents they are men now. To mainly achieve sort of "tough" and "macho" rebel status so desired by the young generation.

Our generations have had it relativly easy. There have been no great depressions, no world wars, no mass-exoduses. The markets are relativly stable, unemployment is minimal in comparison to previous generations... so what happens? We create our own turmoils because we feel that it HAS to be this way.

That should not be a cause or a reason to indulge in unsavory practices....that should be a point of reflection and self admiration that a generation has achieved such a stable time when the human history is written in blood and hate....

...so it brings me back to my point that we create our own uncerteinties and our own misery. To feed our own primal need to have a reason. To have something to struggle against because if all that is lost then our purpose is lost, our motive to live is lost, our dreams to achieve peace are lost because once we reach nirvana there is no way but down from there. Inside we know that we have no known purpose that serves anything to anyone except us and that scares us.

Like a man who has lived all of his dreams....a sad man indeed.

 

[MrBishop]

And who gives them what they have?...the prior generation so who do they have to institutionalize the notion of a hardship life? "Spare the rod and spoil the child and then ride the child around in a SUV" sort of mentality is ludacris at best. Agreed that a child should be given responsibility to be a fully functioning adult in the given society but it shouldn't be the purpose of the parents to make his/her progeny realize,through hardships, what a fucker life is.

Perhaps not, but shouldn't a parent make sure that his/her child's eyes are as wide open as possible. That pain exists in a very concrete sence. That the parent sknow that it exists because they've experienced it themselves. How else to demostrate effectivly the lenghts and breadth of pain than to relate personal experience?

Funny, I see the child seeking out pain and harm to impress and gain acceptence within the given circle of peers, not neccessarily to learn and show their parents they are men now. To mainly achieve sort of "tough" and "macho" rebel status so desired by the young generation.

Peer pressure or macho ideology leading to self-inflicted pain? It makes a better story to brag about the pain that you've survived than the joys that you've experienced, so perhaps that theory fits...but I think that bragging doesn't equal seeking out something to brag about. Perhaps thrill-seeking is what you're talking about..if so, then the sense of indestructeability that teenagers have inately would be the cause.

That should not be a cause or a reason to indulge in unsavory practices....that should be a point of reflection and self admiration that a generation has achieved such a stable time when the human history is written in blood and hate....

Oh...we're glad for it, if Rememberance Day has anything to say about it. By unsavory practices, could you be more specific?

...so it brings me back to my point that we create our own uncerteinties and our own misery. To feed our own primal need to have a reason. To have something to struggle against because if all that is lost then our purpose is lost, our motive to live is lost, our dreams to achieve peace are lost because once we reach nirvana there is no way but down from there. Inside we know that we have no known purpose that serves anything to anyone except us and that scares us.

This is exactly the point where religion tries to step in. People require some sort of meaning to their lives and their very existance. Some find that religion gives them their answers, others dedicate their lives towards seeking a scientific truth, some of us who can achieve neither seek out logical paths (like we're doing now), or degrade into pain. I wish that I could verbalize my thought on this with greater ease.

Like a man who has lived all of his dreams....a sad man indeed.

To hurt a man, take away his favorite thing. To hurt him more, give it back to him...broken.

 

[freako104]

I dont think so. I think pain is a sensation that we are alive but not necessarily human. there are other ways to feel human as well. carrying someones burden is nothing more than empathy and showing you care.

 

[Camelyn]

In my opinion (emphasis on *my opinion*), it's leftover Christian dogma. Suffer the pain and rise above and ye shall be brought to a better place. Life sucked in the early days of Christianity, and pain was everywhere. What better way to reel in the followers than to offer them a reason and reward for their suffering?

Reality: pain in any form just plain hurts. The only redeeming benefit to pain is that it conditions you through negative reinforcement not to get your silly ass into a particular predicament again.

 

[Squiggy]

What we can endure, survive, overcome, makes us realize our strengths and grow confident from the trial...Its never something one really wishes for or wants ever to repeat. But once experienced, we are glad we did because we now know more about ourselves...

 

[BlurOfSerenity]

i have to say yes in response to this... maybe i'm misunderstanding, but sometimes i do need pain to feel human; to feel alive.
that's just me, tho.
lalala