Don't like our policies

That's kind of like saying, "I'd really love you if you were six inches taller, had blonde hair, blue eyes and a completely different personality."
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No, it's like saying i love my apartment but hate the landlord.

Gonz- It is people. If people were good, honest, caring unselfish and cared about the welfare of others the government officials would see to it that everything was distributed equally and of course education and information would be legal resulting in a thriving economy in which case it really wouldn't look like socialism at all. But in such a case as unrealistic as it may be, any goverment could thrive whether it was anarchistic or republic. This however is impossible as people are generally selfish. All a democracy does is balance the rights and powers to the weight of the majority. -This does not mean that i agree with the idea of socialism or communism only that the key factor in the success or failure of the system is man.
 
It isn't that people are "bad" that makes communism a flawed system for human social organizations, but simply that people are "people." You can't take an organizational scheme that works for members that do not have brains, and apply that scheme to a group in which the members do have brains.
 
outside looking in said:
It's not the people, it's the system. Socialism is flawed.
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All systems are inherently flawed. It's up to the people to work within those flaws to make things better for everyone, instead of just themselves.
 
Theres just one little kicker. Collective human nature on a grand scale is heavily slanted towards sin rather than virtue.
 
It isn't that people are "bad" that makes communism a flawed system for human social organizations, but simply that people are "people."
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ie People=Generally Bad

It's that simple. I don't by into the thinking that people can't be judged as good or bad because we all have our own set of ideals bla bla bla...
People are generally selfish.
 
one of the things that is often admired in the uk when looking at the us is the classless nature of it. roadsweeper, teacher or md the same - you work you make money well done.

over here there is still a degree of looking down on some professions, manual labour, construction workers etc are often looked down on in favour of educated professions. upshot is that now we have a shortage of skilled work in bricklaying, timber, plastering, etc
 
HeXp£Øi± said:
ie People=Generally Bad
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By your definition of bad, Hex. I think OLI's right, people are people. We actually discussed this some in anotherthread. but here is part of what I believe anyway. Marxism/Communism/Socialism sacrifices the individual for the good of the collective. Human beings are simply not wired that way. WE are individuals, we're competitive, self-centered, jealous and greedy. Certain groups throughout history have taught us that these are "bad" traits, and "good" people don't have them. That's a lie. These are survival traits for our species, they make us what we are (Note: I'm simplifying this quite a bit because I don't want to type so much. Some of us are lazy, too:D). I don't agree with Ards that communism,et al is evil, just that it is unworkable in human society. Hell, history shows us that peace is unworkable in human society. There'll always be people more greedy than the rest of us upsetting the apple cart, as it were. We are as a species just too contentious for peace to last any length of time.
 
Ooops, a twofer! Actually, a benevolent despotism (like a monarchy) is the most effecient form of government. The problem is finding the benevolent despot. I notice PT keeps volunteering. Does this worry anyone else?:yell:
 
HeXp£Øi± said:
People are generally selfish.
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You say that like it's a bad thing... Why should people work for the benefit of others? What makes those others more worthy of the product of their labor than themselves?

You know... you guys are starting to freak me out a little. You're doing a better job of selling socialism than the liberals on the board. So what if it won't work? You're telling everyone that it's the more moral system, and if only people would act 'virtuously', it would work. You're saying that capitalism works because it accomodates the man's evil nature. If I believed any of that, I would have to join the socialists.

The proper, moral activity of every individual is the pursuit of his own well-being and long-term happiness. The virtues proper to man are the virtues that make him successful at achieving that happiness: productivity, independence, honesty, integrity...

The altruist, the person who believes that sacrifice for others is the measure of virtue, gives up his own happiness for the benefit of others. If self-sacrifice is the sole measure of virtue then the altruist must be willing to sacrifice even his personal virtues when it is demanded by others. He can justify lying, cheating, looting and murder, so long as the victims can be labeled selfish (Jews, the bourgeoises, the rich, etc), and the beneficiaries can be portrayed as victims (the Volk, the proletariat, the poor). Altruism is the most immoral, destructive, ethical philosophy that has ever been invented. Socialism, in all its forms, is the political expression of altruism. That is why it has murdered so many millions of people.
 
I can't find the post now, but a while back Prof wrote something about not trusting anyone who didn't put their own self-interest above everyone else's. I understand this completely. Selfishness is not a bad thing or a good thing, it's simply part of what we are. As individuals we (generally) think our lives are more important, our opinions are more valid, and this is exactly the way it should be. I suspect that this selfish competitiveness is necessary to evolve individual intelligence, but of course there is no frame of refence, so how would we know. I think people get too hung up on the concept of what's "bad" or what's "good."
 
chcr said:
Q said:
He has about a bajillion kids. He's prolly the most qualified here.
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Think we can count on his wife to keep him in line?
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She's kept me in line so far. Still allows me internet access though, so you got to wonder.
 
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