Ethanol will have to depend on campaign promises to survive

jimpeel

jimpeel

Well-Known Member
Not the panacea it once was thought to be, ethanol is going broke.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-obama-energy-12_wrapdec12,0,2024979.story

Ethanol counting on campaign promises
Obama pledged his support, but policy, interests may collide

By Joshua Boak | Tribune reporter
December 12, 2008

Record corn prices drove VeraSun Energy into bankruptcy. Shares in Aventine Renewable Energy are trading for less than 50 cents, down 99 percent from their peak. Plans for 19 ethanol refineries were recently canceled, including nine in Illinois.

And because of its lower energy content, ethanol blend E85 effectively costs drivers about 30 cents more per gallon than gasoline, hurting its acceptance as an alternative fuel.

Promises of additional government support for ethanol producers from President-elect Barack Obama might not be enough to immediately rescue a business near and dear to farmers. Ethanol is a crucial part of Obama's pledge to limit the use of foreign oil, a policy that connects energy to national security and economic development.

Government mandates established a demand for ethanol that proved greater than what the corn harvest could provide. That drove up corn prices and slashed the profit margins of refiners. Additional government efforts to strengthen the industry could only prolong that cycle.

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one reason I'm for Pickens.
He's got a big vested interest already in alt fuel. He's not following the market.
His stuff Will work.
 
because the MO leads me to believe the guy is full of shit. i don't know if it would be cheaper. i don't know if it would be, um, better. but i at least, initially, suspicious of the guy's motivations. so if i get motivated about this, i'll have a lot reading to do to educate meself on it. but i sure as shit ain't taking t boon's word for it. just like i don't trust auto mechanics whom with i'm personally unfamiliar.
 
nevermind all that. the real problem with it is, small engines wont halfway run on it. not a big problem for the urbanites, but try and get a lawnmower or garden tiller or chainsaw or string trimmer or log splitter to burn it
 
H2O boy said:
nevermind all that. the real problem with it is, small engines wont halfway run on it. not a big problem for the urbanites, but try and get a lawnmower or garden tiller or chainsaw or string trimmer or log splitter to burn it
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but wouldn't you imagine that, if successful, the alt fuel would drive the demand for regular gas incrementally down, and thereby making it cheeper to till, saw, split, and trim, so you can till, saw, split, and trim all youz want, until you don't wanna till, saw, split, trim, no more.
 
chcr said:
Ethanol is a dead end. Not even really a stopgap measure.
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Agreed. Ethanol is a Ponzi scheme crammed down America's throat by politicians hoping to make themselves and their buddies (read: campaign contributors) rich(er). It does very little to reduce our dependency on foreign oil.

I don't trust anything that involves government + Archer Daniels Midland. Pick one.
 
Gonz said:
Cheaper?

Save ten cents per gallon but double your food bill isn't cheaper, is thievery. Slim is out to join the green movement...green spells cash.
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Actually, Gonz, the fuel (we're talking about E85 here, right?) may cost .10/gal less than gasoline, but costs the equivalent of .30/gal more in loss of efficiency (MPG). Ethanol fuel produces less energy per unit than gasoline due to its stoichiometric fuel ratio (amount of fuel per unit of air) when used in an engine that is capable of burning E85 and gasoline (Flex-Fuel engines), resulting in a loss of fuel efficiency as much as 28%.

According to an article by Pat Bedard in a recent issue of Car and Driver magazine, the corn used in E85 production is feed corn, the type grown for animal feed and unsuitable for human consumption, therefore there is no correlation with food prices. The higher food prices you are seeing are a result of higher transportation costs due to higher fuel costs.
 
Sharky said:
therefore there is no correlation with food prices.
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Cows & chickens, and hogs to a much lesser degree, eat corn. Corn supplies all kinds of additives to other foodstuffs. Nobody around here grows sweet corn. I recall a few years ago it was about three bucks a bushel. This past summer, it topped seven. It has an absolute affect on our food prices. Even pop has gone up because of ethanol.

Any alternative fuel that includes oil is not an alternative. It's an excuse.
 
Gonz said:
Cows & chickens, and hogs to a much lesser degree, eat corn. Corn supplies all kinds of additives to other foodstuffs. Nobody around here grows sweet corn. I recall a few years ago it was about three bucks a bushel. This past summer, it topped seven. It has an absolute affect on our food prices.
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I see your point, and it is a valid one. I don't remember if Bedard addressed that issue, I'll find the article and see. With government subsidies and incentives to grow feed corn, it's no wonder nobody grows sweet corn.

Even pop has gone up because of ethanol.
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Corn syrup, yup.

Any alternative fuel that includes oil is not an alternative. It's an excuse.
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An excuse, a source of wealth for the elite and a tool to garner votes as well, yes. A practical alternative, not so much. But then again, hydrogen fuel cells are not a practical alternative. Hell, even electric isn't a practical alternative - that electricity has to come from somewhere. The only real alternative at this point is more efficient use of oil.
 
2minkey said:
but wouldn't you imagine that, if successful, the alt fuel would drive the demand for regular gas incrementally down, and thereby making it cheeper to till, saw, split, and trim, so you can till, saw, split, and trim all youz want, until you don't wanna till, saw, split, trim, no more.
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:rofl3:



wait a minute. did you just


:rofl3:

hold on, let me get myself together here



did you just suggest that a government backed mandate would ultimately result in something being cheaper than before they messed with it?

:rofl3:

son, where have you been all your life?

if the almighty government were in its infinate wisdom to decree that after every gas pump in the country were filled with e85 crap, do you honestly think that gasoline as we know it today will remain available? and on the .0001% chance that it is, would not any right thinking non-brainwashed consumer in the country then be buying it for their cars? especially if its cheaper than the colored water the government sells you?

you been reading barry's blitzkrieg too long. come out into the sunshine, get some fresh air, let your brain cells recover from hte onslaught of horse manure you've been coating them in. let the ape fend for himself for a day or two and take the time to see what a sham this is.

and as you reflect on the ways of the world, ask yourself this. how many of the members of congress would gleefully boil the small towns in oil to save all those city votes? who among congress is earnestly concerned with how any of us do more than they are how most of us vote? do you think for one second they'd hesitate to push this malarky through, then mandate that all small engine manufacturers then commence building only engines that'll sputter on this water? think thats going to be cheap, replacing all your equipment because you cant get gas for it now?

time to pull your head out of that crack its in and see whos running things these days
 
Any alternative fuel that includes oil is not an alternative. It's an excuse.[/QUOTE]

Now you're making sense, man!

Wind, solar and hydro, sure, but they are all going to stand on the shoulders of the PETROCHEM technology for their components to be manufactured.
And a wind turbine- for example- has to be lubed- what with, if not dead dinosaur grease? Whale oil, maybe? Vegetable oil? Well, that requires tractors and combines, which will run on what ? if not gasoline or diesel?
Seems we have "painted ourselves into a corner" here- a challenge for the next generation, whom we have short-sheeted on their education, so they are even more ignorant than we are!
We is fucked, folks-get ready for the new Neolithic Age!
 
Well then, fossil fuels it is...

Alternatives will not be created, they'll be discovered, by necessity. Hydrogen still may prove to be an alternative but there are some things to work out. It may be one year or fifty. Working on something beats listening to the whiners say we're doing nothing.

Just as long as we're not using food sources.
 
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