heh

hehehe

Myth vs. Fact


Name one weapon in the Iraqi arsenal that was made in the United States.

I have offered that challenge to dozens of so-called anti-war activists who claim that the U.S. armed Iraq. According to these protesters for "peace," George Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan supplied Iraq with tons of weapons.

None have been able to name the specific weapon – missile, bomb, fighter, tank or shell – that is U.S.-made or has U.S. equipment installed in it. None have been able to name any specific weapon system.

All of them have failed the challenge, providing no more than allegations that U.S. parts are in Iraqi missiles or U.S. electronics are being used by the Iraqi military. One protester even claimed that Iraq was armed with U.S.-made trucks.

Since when is a truck a weapon? Are the Iraqis going to drive backwards, fuel tank first, into the U.S. Army?

Time to separate the myth from the reality. The propaganda spun by the far left is false. The facts show that Iraq is armed with a wide range of weapons – none of which came from the U.S.
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NewsMax
 
ResearchMonkey said:
as I recently wrote for another board.

Here a few of the things Saddam admitted he had been doing under the nose of UN-inspections™ in 1995.


  • Creating an offensive Bio-weapon capability
  • 5000 Gals of Botulinium.
  • 2000 Gals of Anthrax.
  • 25 Bio-Weapon filled Scud-heads
  • 157 aerial bombs.



Now those numbers are NOT our numbers, those are the numbers that Saddam gave the UN and the world in 1995 as he booted out the inspectors because Billy was bullying him.

Have quick read of this speech ---bill clinton making the case for a ground-war he never entered into. While the democrats fully supported his case for war, the polls didn't support it at the time.

**************


As for the "2-main points for war" ....last I read there were 23 reason given as to why we went in. With only 4 of those pertaining to WMD's.
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ResearchMonkey, Thank you for the reply to my post and for the input.

Even if Saddam did in fact have those weapons in 1995, I still believe the threat to the USA was exaggerated. I don't know what happened to those weapons, maybe they were destroyed, maybe he was bluffing, maybe he does have them hidden somewhere. I just believe that before you invade a country with that being one of the main reasons, you should be 100% certain that he does have WMD and is planing to use them.

Also, keep in mind that Iraq is not the only country that had/is seeking WMD.
(North Korea? Syria? Pakistan? Libya? Saudi Arabia?)

As for the "2-main points for war" ....last I read there were 23 reason given as to why we went in. With only 4 of those pertaining to WMD's.
Click to expand...

I never said that there were not other reasons to invade Iraq. I said that those were the two main reasons. I still stand by that.


ResearchMonkey,
Honestly, do you believe that the war in Iraq was justified?

Who knows, maybe if Bush had not invaded Iraq, and had concentrated his efforts against the enemy that actually did attack him, we may just have a Mr. Bin Laden behind bars, or dead.
 
I'd like to ask you a question or six...

do you think that Iraq is better off without saddam?

if saddam agreed to conditions of surrender & didn't follow through on said conditions, then wouldn't this be only be a continuation of the previous war?

Supposing we made matters worse, why hasn't that model held true in the past? What's different between Arabs & Japanese or Arabs & Germans?

Hasn't there been sufficient proof to show that saddam had ties to terrorism, in general? So then, please explain why al qaida has some connection to Saudia Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, France, England, FLORIDA...damn near everywhere EXCEPT Iraq. Why is Iraq the only place that is not tied to Usama bin Laden or alqaida?

Oh, by the way, Clinton lied about saddams WMDs in 1998.

The president said Iraq's refusal to cooperate with U.N. weapons inspectors presented a threat to the entire world.

"Saddam (Hussein) must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons," Clinton said.
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Shut down CNN text.

I also beleive he spoke of this again in '99 & 2000.

Would you like me to provide dates on the UN Security Councils addendums and added measures to the Iraq WMD situation?
 
:hmm: That tank was most likely bought for scrap. If not, it was over 60 years old, so it's nothing more than a place to hide. The 75mm gun couldn't even take out a Stryker. :rolleyes: Times have changed...
 
staffrodore said:
Hear hear, it's on par with Vietnam, another war where lost where the Americans and Britians should've stayed home.
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Ummm...I don't believe Britain was involved in Vietnam. Are you okay? :lloyd:
 
K62 said:
..
....I just believe that before you invade a country with that being one of the main reasons, you should be 100% certain that he does have WMD and is planing to use them.

Also, keep in mind that Iraq is not the only country that had/is seeking WMD.
(North Korea? Syria? Pakistan? Libya? Saudi Arabia?)

.

ResearchMonkey,
Honestly, do you believe that the war in Iraq was justified?
.
Click to expand...

Well how do you propose we could know anything for certain reguarding clandestine projects. We knew he had them, the UN tagged literally hundreds-of-tons of weapons up til they got kicked out. Intel is game of best-guess, there is no 100%, only hi-confidence in this situation. My guess is that we were right on much of it, but it was moved to location "X" and "X" and "X" (place syria in there somewhere).

I'm aware of the WMD threats, so is the Gov't. It then becomes a matter of who is the greater threat, who will result in the largest impact over time, and many other considerations. We have limited resources.

I think that due to nature of Saddam and the general shit-hole terrorist breding ground of Iraq made was a large influnce. I think the results will bear fruits of less terrorist in the long run. There is a degree of hope for the people in a democratic free society.


Do I think it was justified.............YES, absoulutly, among other considerations. --Those people needed rescueing as much, if not more, then tsunami victims do. The conditions those people lived under was far beyond acceptable from a humanity POV.

I'll give more info later, time to get the kids ready for school. ;)
 
Honestly, do you believe that the war in Iraq was justified?
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as for me....
Absolutly I believe.
He had them"."
either they are still there buried, or went to Syria.
If we hadn't went in, he'd still have um right now.
If we hadn't went in and he did in-fact destroy them, he'd still have um right now.
He did after all, and confirmed, have the capability to produce them quick, still.
 
Gonz said:
I'd like to ask you a question or six...

do you think that Iraq is better off without saddam?

if saddam agreed to conditions of surrender & didn't follow through on said conditions, then wouldn't this be only be a continuation of the previous war?

Supposing we made matters worse, why hasn't that model held true in the past? What's different between Arabs & Japanese or Arabs & Germans?

Hasn't there been sufficient proof to show that saddam had ties to terrorism, in general? So then, please explain why al qaida has some connection to Saudia Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, France, England, FLORIDA...damn near everywhere EXCEPT Iraq. Why is Iraq the only place that is not tied to Usama bin Laden or alqaida?

Oh, by the way, Clinton lied about saddams WMDs in 1998.



Shut down CNN text.

I also beleive he spoke of this again in '99 & 2000.

Would you like me to provide dates on the UN Security Councils addendums and added measures to the Iraq WMD situation?
Click to expand...

Gonz, Gato, ResearchMonkey,
Thank you for your input once again,

do you think that Iraq is better off without saddam?
Click to expand...
Maybe in the long term, maybe.
Do I think it was worth the lives on 1500 odd coalition soldiers, the 10,000 or so injured, and the 100,000 civilian human beings that will not wake up tomorrow?

These numbers will only grow and grow, as we won't be getting out of there any time soon.

Ask the average Iraqis that is 2.5 times more likely to DIE since the USA invaded Iraq if he is better off now. (same link as the 100,000 figure)

As my good friend Tank Girl said, Saddam's government was corrupt, Saddam was a very selfish man. I believe the last thing he would have done would have been to attack the USA any time soon. Why? Because that would, no question lead to an invasion and destruction of his regime.

Gato, about that picture.. that one was more of a joke in response to Gonz.
Name one weapon in the Iraqi arsenal that was made in the United States.
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That is a weapon in the Iraqi arsenal that was made in the USA, is it not?
I know very well that a single old Sherman isn't a significant threat, how they acquired it? I don't know.

ResearchMonkey,

I know that Intel is a game of best guess, but just listen to Powell’s "war speech". DRAWINGS of mobile chemical labs, being "sold" to us as facts?
He admitted to being wrong about them, just maybe the intelligence agencies were wrong about some other things also, just maybe.
http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2004/apr/04/wnw_4-1.htm

Would you argue when I say that bush's #1 reason to invade Iraq WAS because (he thought) that Saddam had WMD? I remember before the war started, he used that as a scare tactic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2729525.stm
That link is to the entire text of Powell's speech. A very good percent of this speech is against Saddams WMD. Now the US has given up its search for WMD, and the chief US investigator is not planning to go back to the country.

Like I said before, I believe 15 years from now this will be looked back on as one of the greatest mistakes.
 
K62, I like the game, its being well played ;)


BTW- 100,000 dead civi's, bad numbers, skewed method.

I, however, am lacking any sleep for the past +24 hours. I need to catch a little.


I will go ahead and copy my post from another forum to here. It has good facts and a twinge of insider information.

Now mind you; this post was originally aimed the troll-king, so if you see innuendos or slight insults... they are not aimed at anyone here. It is my werk in full thoo.

Oh my pet, you’ll need to get out your crayons, we’re going to play a game of connect the dots.



If you remember back to Gulf-War-1…

Hostilities were suspended under absolute terms that Iraq fully reveal all programs within 15-days, that he would submit to unfettered inspections and destruction of ALL WMD’s and their facilities. As well allow air-patrols over the north and south portions of Iraq to protect the peoples. 200,000 US troops on your ass is a good reason to enter into such an agreement, ‘specially when you have no intentions to actually comply.


We knew that Saddam had WMD’s back in ’91. We also knew he didn’t have a problem using them, even on his own people.


Well, UN-inspections™ began; we destroyed some of the weapons and found literally tons more of WMD’s. We also found facilites that were geared for creating more WMD’s, including nuclear facilities that were further advanced then anyone expected.





Jump forward, 1995…


Hussein Kamal, the WMD chief dood for Saddam defected to Jordan and told his story of how Saddam was playing cat-and-mouse under the nose of the UN; that he was in fact still creating banned weapons and missiles.


Up to this point Saddam had denied any of this was going on, but once his son-in-law (Hussein Kamal) had brought forth what he knew, Saddam changed his tune, did a 180’, and admitted some of the allegations.


Here a few of the things Saddam admitted he had been doing under the nose of UN-inspections™ in 1995.


  • Creating an offensive Bio-weapon capability
  • 5000 Gals of Botulinium.
  • 2000 Gals of Anthrax.
  • 25 Bio-Weapon filled Scud-heads
  • 157 aerial bombs.



Now those numbers are NOT our numbers, those are the numbers that Saddam gave us once he admitted his son-in-law was telling us the truth. Bill Clinton repeated these numbers as he made a case for for a possible ground war. (BTW, Saddam later had his son-law-chopped into little pieces when he was tricked into coming home)




In fact Bill did such a fine a job of making the case, I’ll post his entire speech so not to lose any of the context.


Bill Clinton, from the steps of the Pentagon, 9/17/98….


Iraq repeatedly made false declarations about the weapons that it had left in its possession after the Gulf War. When UNSCOM would then uncover evidence that gave the lie to those declarations, Iraq would simply amend the reports. For example, Iraq revised its nuclear declarations four times within just 14 months, and it has submitted six different biological warfare declarations, each of which has been rejected by UNSCOM.


In 1995 Hussein Kamal, Saddam's son-in-law and the chief organizer of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program, defected to Jordan. He revealed that Iraq was continuing to conceal weapons and missiles and the capacity to build many more. Then and only then did Iraq admit to developing numbers of weapons in significant quantities--and weapons stocks. Previously it had vehemently denied the very thing it just simply admitted once Saddam's son-in-law defected to Jordan and told the truth.



Now listen to this: What did it admit? It admitted, among other things, an offensive biological warfare capability, notably, 5,000 gallons of botulinum, which causes botulism; 2,000 gallons of anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud warheads; and 157 aerial bombs. And I might say UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq has actually greatly understated its production. . . .


Next, throughout this entire process, Iraqi agents have undermined and undercut UNSCOM. They've harassed the inspectors, lied to them, disabled monitoring cameras, literally spirited evidence out of the back doors of suspect facilities as inspectors walked through the front door, and our people were there observing it and had the pictures to prove it. . . .


Over the past few months, as [the weapons inspectors] have come closer and closer to rooting out Iraq's remaining nuclear capacity, Saddam has undertaken yet another gambit to thwart their ambitions by imposing debilitating conditions on the inspectors and declaring key sites which have still not been inspected off limits, including, I might add, one palace in Baghdad more than 2,600 acres large. . . .


One of these presidential sites is about the size of Washington, D.C. . . .


It is obvious that there is an attempt here, based on the whole history of this operation since 1991, to protect whatever remains of his capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, the missiles to deliver them, and the feed stocks necessary to produce them. The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons. . . .


Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction.


And some day, some way, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal. . . . In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now--a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers, or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.


If we fail to respond today, Saddam, and all those who would follow in his footsteps, will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council, and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program.



Source, Bill Clinton
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With-out benefit of US intel, Saddam himself has admitted/shown is intent as to WMD’s. You have to wonder, ….if he copp’d to this … what else did he have going on that he didn’t cop’ too.



Well, Clinton never got around to the ground war; he was busy with “other presidential matters”. Instead he created Operation Desert Fox. ODF worked out well for Clinton, but it was the reason given by Saddam as to why he was kicking out the UN-inspectors™.



So in 1998 the UN-inspectors™ left ….and for the next four years Saddam was able to reconfigure how he operated. After the many years of UN-inspections™ he became quite knowledgeable about how to fool the UN and how the UN inspectors went about their business. Not to mention that he had by this time figured out how to buy new arms from the Frogs and Rooski’s. He also managed to find new ways of procuring “other things” he needed for nefarious reasons. (have you heard of UN-oil-for-food™ ) .





So a quick jump to more recent times.


After four years it seems Saddam had a change of heart, he was clean. He had “destroyed everything”; he had forgone any effort to create more WMD programs, and he visited his grandmother twice a week to help her with her laundry, he had become a saint.


The UN-inspectors™ returned and asked the question “can you prove it” of which the reply, in short, was “No”. Even thoo Iraq was known to have been quite anal about keeping records they couldn’t provide the location they had destroyed the weapons or any credible paperwork that would indicate that any of it was destroyed. ….We did have their promise that is was done thoo.



So we go forth…



David Kay gave his report to Congress and based on the testimonies of iraqi scientist and physical evidence, he gave serveral points that never quite made it to the front page of the NYT..


  • Even thoo Hans Blix had firmly requested it, he didn’t receive any information about the clandestine netwerks of labratories, scientist, and equipment that suitable for research and creation of WMD programs as related to Bio/Chem weapons.
  • A prison laboratory that more then suitable for human experiments with biologiical weapons. Under the threat of death, this was not to be revealed to Hans Blix, and he never did find out about it, until Kay told him.
  • Reference strains of Bio-organism were found in a refrigerator of an Iraqi leading bio-scientist.
  • Kay also revealed that new research had been done on several Biological strains including: Congo hemoragic, ricin, and aflatoxin, none of which was ever discovered by Hans Blix.
  • Blix also never found any of the advanced plans for long-range missiles (like 1000 kilometers long), Kay found thenn thoo



OK so it all means nothing, theres not any proof there, its all speculation …. Saddams wasn’tt caught with a wooden spoon in his hand stiring a fresh kettle full of Sarin. In fact we haven’t lifted his actual finger print off of any of these programs. Maybe because during those four years of no UN-inspectors™ and billions of dollar obtained thru the humanitarian mission of “Oil-for-food™ they too were all given “caustic washes”, just like the Mobile Iraqi-Hydrogen-Plants™.



Yes while then UN enabled Saddam to seek ways of providing for his people, he was so altuistic that he used several million dollars from the Oil-for-food™ program to invest into forcasting weather for the citizens of Iraq. He felt is very impotant to know if it was going to be hot/miserable or cold/miserable.


Again, I suppose the over kill used to create these hydrogen-plants™ is just another one of ‘Iraqi Pride’ things. Only the best equipment will do, godda do more then is needed, just incase its ever needed to do other things.

Yupper-doo, it was just a part of Saddams New Nat’l Weather Program™



lab6x.jpg




The trailer itself has a metal plaque that says it was manufactured in 2001 by Iraq's Al-Naser Al-Adheem – a munitions company controlled by Saddam Hussein – and inspected in 2002.

<snips>

But they found the entire mobile unit had been thoroughly cleansed and decontaminated with a strong caustic agent that rid the trailer of traces of whatever material had been produced.

<snipperoo>

A U.S. Army Intel officer in Iraq said he was convinced the trailer was used to make biological weapons: "There are too many indications this was used for biological weapons. The tubing, the heating system, the exhaust system are specific to the kind of military-grade production we saw before the first Gulf War. Also, when you're conducting legitimate laboratory work, you want to do it in the most stable environment possible. Why would scientists work from a trailer?"

October 6, 2004 - Worthy of consideration WND
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the investigation continues, we're just not going to dig up the entire nation of sand looking for them, ... we might however take a peek under Syrias dress as we go thru the tens-of-thousands pages related to WMDs' we recovered.

Seems I read somewhere a first hand account where several of our soldiers, and their embeded NYT reporter, got hit with Chlorine Gas while in Iraq ..... yeah, that soldier was prolly a liar. (...where did I read that????? hmmmm)

Chrorine Gas, DimethylSulfate,
chlorine.jpg


dimethylsulfate.jpg
<<<< Run this thru google

crates.jpg


barrels.jpg




Well again there's nothing here, I'm sure in light of all these facts you can only come to one single conclusion.



...oil-war
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the part about a soldier getting hit with Chlorine Gas; that refers to a first hand account experinced by a soldier that several people here have known for several years before the war, he was personally affected. hes a good guy.


......there are WMD's in iraq among other places.




[Arnold voice] I'll be back, after some winks[/Arnold voice]
 
OOOwww ,fabric sofenter ,lets bomb em.


Dimethyl sulfate is used to make quaternary fatty ammonium compounds used as surfactants and fabric softeners. An example is the quaternary salt in which R is hydrogenated tallow:
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http://www.dupont.com/dms/uses/commercial.html


got hit with Chlorine Gas while in Iraq ..... yeah, that soldier was prolly a liar. (...where did I read that????? hmmmm)
Click to expand...


Chlorine gas isn't that uncommon ,even I have been hit with it.POOL Chemicals ,some idiot disposed of a broken container in the trash compacter and it mixed with something and gave off a "Chlorine cloud" that caused an evacuation.There are stories frequently about chlorine accidents at pools and water treatment facilities ,so I don't doubt they probably came in contact with it,but it doesn't prove WMD.


Chief U.S. weapons hunter Charles Duelfer (search) is to deliver his final report on the search next month. "It's not going to fundamentally alter the findings of his earlier report," McClellan said, referring to preliminary findings from last September. Duelfer reported then that Saddam Hussein not only had no weapons of mass destruction and had not made any since 1991, but that he had no capability of making any either. Bush unapologetically defended his decision to invade Iraq.
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Notice hes not contradicting the findings ,but saying it was still a good idea,even the Iraqi friendlies Allawi and his conterparts aren't arguing that WMDs exist/existed ,they simply say that it was good that Saddam was removed .
 
I make mustard gas all the time when I'm cleaning in a really really fucking stupid yet very effective manner.
 
lab6x.jpg


The trailer itself has a metal plaque that says it was manufactured in 2001 by Iraq's Al-Naser Al-Adheem – a munitions company controlled by Saddam Hussein – and inspected in 2002.

<snips>

But they found the entire mobile unit had been thoroughly cleansed and decontaminated with a strong caustic agent that rid the trailer of traces of whatever material had been produced.
Click to expand...

It now emerges that, for at least the last two weeks, Iraqi scientists and technicians have been telling coalition interrogators that the “suspected mobile bioweapons labs” found in northern Iraq were in fact designed to produce hydrogen gas for use in military weather balloons. According to articles that have appeared recently in the major U.S. media, this has been the consistent contention of scientists at the al-Kindi research and testing facility, where the labs were kept. And officials at the al-Naser al-Adheem company, where the labs’ reaction vessels were manufactured, indicate that the Iraqi government had informed them that the labs were intended for hydrogen generation. The bioweapons experts commissioned by the U.S. government confirm that these labs could be used for this purpose. Indeed, this would explain why the labs are equipped with devices that can trap, compress, and store gases emerging from the reaction vessel.



Analysis of residue on one of the reaction vessels indicates the presence of aluminum, as well as of a “caustic”, which, according to CIA analysts, indicated “an attempt to decontaminate and conceal the plant’s purpose.” The term “caustic” probably refers to an extremely alkaline hydroxide salt, such as sodium or potassium hydroxide (known as “caustic soda” and “caustic potash”, respectively). Aluminum reacts very avidly with sodium (or potassium) hydroxide solutions to yield sodium (potassium) aluminate and hydrogen gas. In other words, the residue found in the central reaction vessels in these labs contains the key reactants required to generate hydrogen gas.
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http://traprockpeace.org/Winnebagos.html
 
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