International Criminal Court again

[Ardsgaine]

Originally posted by ris
oh jeez that's going to keep me going for ages, i can't stop laughing.

Enjoy the laugh. You have no idea how Europe is perceived in the States. Do you remember Clinton's first term in office? Do you remember the issue that almost sunk his presidency long before Monica was ever dreamed of? It was the attempt by his wife to nationalize health care in the US. Is there a European country that doesn't have national health care?

The majority of Americans do not like socialism. Many are inconsistent about it to be sure, but they don't simply take it for granted the way Europeans seem to. The social programs that we have are hotly debated, and there's a substantial portion of the population that still believes in laissez-faire capitalism.

they want the international community to sign it so that it is a common policy, a level across which everyone can be judged, regardless of who they are. it shows that the international community is serious about these issues and that no-one, from within or without of governments is safe from prosecution for crimes against humanity.

We've seen how the UN behaves, and we want no part of anymore international organizations that require us to defer to their judgments. Giving Syria a seat on the Security Council was just the latest in a string of incidents that demonstrate clearly that the majority of the "international community" is composed of thugs and their apologists. Are these the people we should allow to pass judgment on the US? No, thank you!

 

[ris]

it was more the power hungry bit, but there you go.

the us has a different social structure and way of doing things. you vote in a different way, you have different priorites. fine, that's you, this is us.
i don't sweat it much, we have a national health service [for what it's worth right now], you guys don't. what of it? different strokes for different folks.

if i understand this right, europe is seen funny becasue hilary wanted a national health service. because some countries here have one that means what to you guys?

many eu countries have national health systems and also encourage private health care now, this is certainly the case here and in france and germany. it's like a hybrid system. in the uk taking out private pensions and health care reduces tax payments.

just because you don't like socialism doesn't mean its wrong or evil. it works pretty good here, leave us to enjoy it. i don't judge your social system, i'd expect tthe same courtesy extended.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Originally posted by ris
if i understand this right, europe is seen funny becasue hilary wanted a national health service. because some countries here have one that means what to you guys?

I was simply illustrating that there is a different view of socialism over here. I thought you might have missed that.

just because you don't like socialism doesn't mean its wrong or evil.

Right. My liking doesn't make it wrong or evil, but it is wrong and evil, and that's why I don't like it.

it works pretty good here

Sure it does.

leave us to enjoy it.

Quite.

[/QUOTE]i don't judge your social system, i'd expect tthe same courtesy extended.[/QUOTE]

Hahahaha. Even if it were true that you don't judge our social system (which it isn't), I would still have things to say about socialism, because there are people over here who wish we were more like Europe. Further, when you say that we should join with the international community to do certain things, like creating the ICC (who wants to be the world's policeman?), it's relevant to point out the different set of values held by our countries, and our different notions of justice and the proper role of government.

 

[ris]

indeed, but i suppose it comes down to seeking and working on points of common prinicpal so that the international community [as in this world of countries] can tackle issues of common concern, such as crimes against humanity.

btw, i really don't have any problem with the us social system, or the one anywhere. seriously, it's up to you how you choose to live your life, not for me to judge, i don't believe i ever have.
i also reserve the right to defend others ways of life too, they deserve that respect also, within reason.

i have to admit it's great i'm not a socialist [by euro standards obviously], seeing as they're evil D

 

[Luis G]

Originally posted by Ardsgaine
Right. My liking doesn't make it wrong or evil, but it is wrong and evil, and that's why I don't like it.

how do you know for a fact that it is evil?

 

[Ardsgaine]

Originally posted by Luis G
how do you know for a fact that it is evil?

Well...

Ah, geez, why bother? You already know for a fact that no one can know anything for a fact, so what would be the point?

 

[ris]

had a horrible thought, ardsgaine, i'm thinking of moving to scandinavia very soon. they're even more socially biased over there than here

the taxes they pay, owww.

but the quality of architectural design more than makes up for it

 

[Luis G]

Originally posted by Ardsgaine
Well...

Ah, geez, why bother? You already know for a fact that no one can know anything for a fact, so what would be the point?

sorry, it wasn't meant to start the flames.

i know that in the past it hasn't worked (socialism), but "the system" is good in itself, or at least a good idea.

I was just trying to know why you call it evil.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Originally posted by Luis G
sorry, it wasn't meant to start the flames.

No, I didn't think you were, and I wasn't trying to flame you. It's just that I've had this conversation with other people, and it always comes down to the question: "well, how can you say that anything is good or evil?" If the person doesn't believe in absolute truths or good and evil, then the conversation just runs into a wall, and no communication is possible. I may have been leaping to conclusions, but I assumed you were objecting to my statement on the grounds that there are no absolute moral truths.

i know that in the past it hasn't worked (socialism), but "the system" is good in itself, or at least a good idea.

Why?

I was just trying to know why you call it evil.

If you can tell me two things that you hold to be absolute moral truths, then I'll give you my explanation for why socialism is evil. It doesn't have to be an argument between us, just an exchange of information.

 

[Luis G]

ok, i like the idea of socialism because "everybody" gets the same, everybody works and everybody have the same priviledges.

However, the quality of socialism that is seen in the world r that has been seen in the past does not live up to the standards of a very good idea where everybody is rich and worker.

 

[ris]

the part of me that is socialist, if it is the right word for it, is that i believe that society should do things to help those in less fortunate postitions, and offering opportunity to all people, regardless of economic standing.

 

[Jeslek]

Every socialist must work hard please. I am going to depend on YOU for a steady cash flow.

Socialism encourages laziness. The USSR demonstrated it quite well. Why do you think is the United States so hated throughout the world? Because of our prosperity. Where does the prosperity come from? Conservatism. The left side just don't work.

And I don't want to fuck this country up like the EU is doing with themselves.

 

[Jeslek]

I've read a lot of editorials about the ICC written by Europeans in the last few days and it's quite apparent that many of them have absolutely no idea why Americans are opposing the court. At first I thought they had to be deliberately pretending to not understand our viewpoint, however I've come to believe that a large number of Europeans truly do not have a clue about many widely held Americans views. That's why I decided to write a short primer to help explain a few things to our European friends....

- Many Europeans seem to think Americans would be shocked to learn that President Bush is pursuing American interests first and foremost instead of "world interests." (--comment: It is really shocking isn't it? Taking care of the neighbor we know instead of some dipshit 5,000 km away we don't know.) But in fact, that's what Americans want our President to do.

- The Constitution is held in high esteem by the American people and is not something that can be easily amended. Any treaty, agreement, or ruling that conflicts with the US Constitution may be fairly assumed to be dead on arrival.

- When most Americans think Europe, they think WW1, WW2, Fascism, Socialism, Nazism, anti-Americanism, weak militaries, anti-semitism, and excessive bureacracy (--comment: Amen!). Furthermore, most Americans view the last century as nothing but America saving Europe from itself over and over in WW1, WW2, w/ the Marshall Plan, and during the Cold War. Because of this, Americans tend to be VERY skeptical of anything proposed by European leaders (Britain is the exception to that rule). (--comment: There are hope for them yet )

- Americans consider their sovereignty to be sacrosanct. If something proposed by the United Nations or international law threatens our sovereignty we are not going to be interested. (--comment: Unlike the people on the other side of the Atlantic that like being ruled by foreigners.)

- Because we're the only nation in the world with the ability to project military force anywhere on the globe, we're constantly called upon to do so or choose to do so ourselves. Because of this, we view things like the ICC or landmine treaty in a far different light than many European nations do. It's easy to sign up for those sorts of treaties if you know your troops will never be used for anything except a peacekeeping mission but that's not the situation we're in.

I hope this little article will be of use to our European allies. If you're from Europe and you have any questions, just post them in the comments section and I'm sure someone will answer them.

SOURCE: Rightwingnews.com

 

[Justintime]

you spent a long time typing that

 

[Ardsgaine]

Originally posted by LastLegionary
Where does the prosperity come from? Conservatism.

Eh?? Conservatism? What sort of economic system is that?

Puh-lease. When conservatives aren't trying to get prayer back in the schools they're busy 'me-too-ing' whatever stupid socialist scheme the Democrats have cooked up. At best, they might try to water it down or delay it a little, but oppose it on principle?? No way! They can't because when it comes down to it, socialism is just the ethics of Christianity applied to politics. Since they agree with the left that we are our brother's keeper, what are they going to say when the left tells them to put their money where their morality is? The left screams, "what?? You don't want to help the poor? You selfish bastards!" And the conservatives cringe and say, "oh, no! We want to help them, we just want to be fiscally responsible about it." "How can you worry about money when people are STARVING!" the left screams, and the conservatives tuck their collective tail between their legs and retreat.

No, I'm sorry. Conservatism isn't an economic system, and it's not really a philosophy. It's more like the whimper of a man who's accepted on principle that he has no right to live, but wants to go on living anyway.

 

[Jeslek]

Cut 'n Paste dude... that is why there is a SOURCE listed at the bottom.

 

[Jeslek]

Conservatism in general refers to the right side of the political spectrum, just like socialism refers to the left side of the spectrum. At the right most side of conservatism is anarchy, and at the left most side of socialism is totalitarianism/communism/dictatorship.

 

[Jeslek]

I hate to tell you, but religion do influence social and economic well being...

Take Islam, and you get Iran, Iraq, North Africa, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc.

Take Hindusim, and you get India.

Take Confenicus and you get Japan.

Take atheism and you get Russia and east Europe and China.

Take Buddhism and you get Thailand, Burma, etc.

Take "magic" and "witchcraft" and you get mid Africa.

Take Roman Catholicism and you get Latin America.



Take Protestantism and you get Western Europe and North America.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Originally posted by LastLegionary
Conservatism in general refers to the right side of the political spectrum, just like socialism refers to the left side of the spectrum. At the right most side of conservatism is anarchy, and at the left most side of socialism is totalitarianism/communism/dictatorship.

No, no, no... anarchy is not right-wing. That measures the spectrum by the amount of government rather than the purpose of government. The proper purpose of government is to protect individual rights. The proper measure of governments is by how well they fulfill that purpose. Anarchy does not protect individual rights. It does not belong on the right.

 

[Ardsgaine]

Originally posted by LastLegionary
Take Protestantism and you get Western Europe and North America.

Take Christianity and you get Europe c.800 AD.

Take Aristotle and you get the Renaissance, you get John Locke and you get the US c.1776.

Our country was founded on Reason, not Religion.