"It was a war," he said. "This is the price of liberty."

[Gonz]

Re: "It was a war," he said. "This is the price of liberty."

I doubt it.

The Americans still remember WWII. Most of the world seems to have put that in their forget files.

 

[flavio]

I wonder whether the American public would see things the same way if it were 3000+ American rather than Iraqi lies that were lost. I doubt it.

Many Americans do care and are outraged at the number of people killed and the misleading information we were given as an excuse.

Others seem to take being lied to by their leader in stride or make excuses for it. The reasons for this attitude are hard to comprehend for me.

 

[Gato_Solo]

I wonder whether the American public would see things the same way if it were 3000+ American rather than Iraqi lies that were lost. I doubt it.

Guess you don't remember 9/11. Even though the Iraqi government wasn't directly responsible, they were handy at the time because of their leaders belligerence.

 

[a13antichrist]

Re: "It was a war," he said. "This is the price of liberty."

So, what you're saying is that if the American people had been given the choice between losing 2932 people at the WTC and Saddam Hussein staying in power, they'd be all for the attack on Iraq? Nice one....

 

[flavio]

Guess you don't remember 9/11. Even though the Iraqi government wasn't directly responsible, they were handy at the time because of their leaders belligerence.

Wow, I think Gato just advocated using 9/11 as a handy excuse to invade a country that wasn't involved.

sick

 

[Gato_Solo]

Re: "It was a war," he said. "This is the price of liberty."

So, what you're saying is that if the American people had been given the choice between losing 2932 people at the WTC and Saddam Hussein staying in power, they'd be all for the attack on Iraq? Nice one....

That's not what I said, and you know it. Read what you wrote, and then what I wrote, and think about it a little before your next reply.

 

[a13antichrist]

Yes, it is, precisely what you said. The claim was that 3000 Iraqi lives is the price of liberty. My original point was that the American people probably wouldn't agree that freeing the Iraqi people would be worth losing 3000 American lives.
So you're demonstrating my error, claiming that Americans would indeed think that Iraqi freedom is worth the price of 3000 American lives. Hmmmmm....

Your mistake actually is that you're providing 9/11 as justification for attacking Iraq. However what we're talking about here is Iraqi freedom as justification for 3000 dead Iraqi civilians. My point was, and still is, that I doubt Americans would see that loss as sufficient justification if they had been American lives rather than Iraqi.

Even though the Iraqi government wasn't directly responsible, they were handy at the time because of their leaders belligerence.

This is the worst of all. What you're claiming here is the equivalent of throwing half of Harlem in jail because a girl in Queens was raped. They weren't directly responible, but they were handy at the time because of their perceived threat.
What you're claiming is that if you've been wronged, you're perfectly within your rights to punish anyone and everyone you don't like. That finding the guilty party isn't important, anyone that's handy will do to appease the mindless masses. That might work in the US, but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone else of the merits of that.
There's a little thing we call justice. Yeah it sucks not to be able to shoot everyone you don't like just because you're pissed at someone you can't find. Solution? Go live in the US, there you're free to punish anyone and everyone you please.

 

[flavio]

There's a little thing we call justice. Yeah it sucks not to be able to shoot everyone you don't like just because you're pissed at someone you can't find. Solution? Go live in the US, there you're free to punish anyone and everyone you please.

Hey, even though Gato is here making us look bad he doesn't represent all of the US. There's a large growing number that actually want some justice as well.

 

[a13antichrist]

Re: "It was a war," he said. "This is the price of liberty."

To be honest, the war itself doesn't bother me. I really couldn't care less if it had been 30,000 Iraqis or 100,000 Americans or even New Zealanders. What annoys me is the fact that the US has decided they have ultimate rights to do whatever they please because somebody blew up a little building.

(Come to think of it I guess if it had been 3000 beautiful women I might be a bit disgusted.. )

 

[Gato_Solo]

Yes, it is, precisely what you said. The claim was that 3000 Iraqi lives is the price of liberty. My original point was that the American people probably wouldn't agree that freeing the Iraqi people would be worth losing 3000 American lives.
So you're demonstrating my error, claiming that Americans would indeed think that Iraqi freedom is worth the price of 3000 American lives. Hmmmmm....

Your mistake actually is that you're providing 9/11 as justification for attacking Iraq. However what we're talking about here is Iraqi freedom as justification for 3000 dead Iraqi civilians. My point was, and still is, that I doubt Americans would see that loss as sufficient justification if they had been American lives rather than Iraqi.



This is the worst of all. What you're claiming here is the equivalent of throwing half of Harlem in jail because a girl in Queens was raped. They weren't directly responible, but they were handy at the time because of their perceived threat.
What you're claiming is that if you've been wronged, you're perfectly within your rights to punish anyone and everyone you don't like. That finding the guilty party isn't important, anyone that's handy will do to appease the mindless masses. That might work in the US, but you'll have a hard time convincing anyone else of the merits of that.
There's a little thing we call justice. Yeah it sucks not to be able to shoot everyone you don't like just because you're pissed at someone you can't find. Solution? Go live in the US, there you're free to punish anyone and everyone you please.

Nope. That is not what I said. I'll put it another way...

If 9/11 hadn't happened, Saddam Hussein would still be in power today.
I never anything else. You inferred all other things you stated. As for the aftermath, here's what I think.

1. I was never actually for this war. I'm just against people who have no clue about world affairs, and who have never left their home areas, deciding what is best for me, as a serviceman. When called to do my duty, that's what I do. Like it, or not.

2. Saddam Hussein had an active WMD program going before the first war here. He couldn't provide any documentation that his program had been completely destroyed as per the agreement he signed after the first gulf war. He compounded the problem by stalling and interfering with UN inspectors until they left in 1998, being accused of 'spying'.

3. Saddam Hussein supported terrorist actions (to the tune of $25,000 each) by paying out money to Palestinian suicide bombers families. This, in itself, speaks volumes about the mind-set of the Iraqi leadership before this current action. What would make him stop just with Israel?

4. This war is just a continuation of 2 actions...the first gulf war, and the action in Afghanistan.

5. As far as the 'mindless masses' reference...the 'mindless masses' aren't fighting this war. People like me are fighting this war, like it or not. If the people were truly against this action, do you really believe we would be here? Most of my career, I've spent cleaning up after somebody else screwed up...Panama...Bosnia...Iraq (twice)...Kenya...Somalia...and other places which are still classified. Civilians, such as you, decide you want to do something, get yourselves into trouble because A. You are not wanted where you went, B. saw something you weren't supposed to, C. you tried to interfere in something that offended your sensibilities, or D. Put somebody in charge somewhere who wasn't liked.

Sure...I'd rather stay at home and be with my family, but because somebody over 12 years ago didn't finish something he sarted, I'm here again.It's not my fault this war happened. It's yours.


A few more things...

1. It wan't

a little building

. It was 2 very large buildings (look it up if you don't believe me).

2. Since the last Gulf war, do you know how many service men and women have died in peace-keeping and/or mission, which we were required to fulfill by a duly elected civilian government?

3. Aren't you sitting in France somewhere? That in itself says quite a bit about who you are (not derogatory).


Once more, for the cheap seats,

Almost 3,000 US citizens died because of civilian policy. Civilians in power decided to take action, and, against the judgement of the military, decided to 'straighten out' an area that had been left to fester, by a civilian government, since the 1950's. As a result, lives were lost in a war that nobody really wanted...especially the military.

 

[a13antichrist]

If 9/11 hadn't happened, Saddam Hussein would still be in power today.

5. As far as the 'mindless masses' reference...the 'mindless masses' aren't fighting this war. People like me are fighting this war, like it or not. If the people were truly against this action, do you really believe we would be here?

That's more or less the whole point. The mindless masses wanted this war because Iraq was conditioned to illicit their fears regarding 9/11. Americans lost 3,000 compatriots, and it motivated them to start a worldwide rampage on anyone of whom they are midly suspicious. My question right at the beginning was, would Americans accept 3000 lost soldiers as the price of liberty for the Iraqi people? 3000 Iraqis is easy, they're the "bad guys" anyways.. given their reaction to losing 3000 citizens on 9/11, you can imagine that not many people would agree that 3000 American lives was a justified price for Iraqi freedom. And then the mindless masses would have dictated your return to your family a little earlier than you'd imagined.

If 9/11 hadn't happened, Saddam Hussein would still be in power today.
I never anything else. You inferred all other things you stated. .

Maybe. Because you presented 9/11 as evidence for the rebuttal of my claim that the American people wouldn't see 3000 US lives as a justified price to pay. If anything, it suggests exactly the opposite, just as I mentioned above.

Or do you think it's more the castrated New York skyline that they're pissed at?