Must atheists believe in evolution?

Let's be realistic. If you were God would you announce it to the world or would you just sit back and let the sinners destroy themselves? If you would God would you want to provide plenty of everything for the masses? You'd sit back and see just how people treats each other.

What I think some people forget is that God does not only exist in the world of the living. What goes on in this world doesn't matter that much because God has the stroke in the spirit world and controls everything.
 
Bubba said:
Let's be realistic. If you were God would you announce it to the world or would you just sit back and let the sinners destroy themselves? If you would God would you want to provide plenty of everything for the masses? You'd sit back and see just how people treats each other.
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According to the Genesis, God wanted us to be fool, thus when we received the fruit of knowledge, he got pissed and punished us, so much love :rolleyes:
 
Something i posted a while ago about God and the creation, it is translated from spanish, thx Leslie for the help.
It is titled: The fallen angel's diary (aka Lucifer)

THE FALL
" We wanted to see the truth,
but he denied it to us.
He deceived with colors and gifts to us,
and meanwhile his power grew.
We wanted to keep the secret alive,
and he called us treasonous,
he sentenced us in a second,
with his power, his feelings.
We did not obey the orders,
unjust orders of the Dictator,
and we were forced to fight.

But finally we fell,
between blood and shouts,
between fear and resignation,
then his power was already superior to ours,
his power was ours.

And he gave us the greatest of the punishments.
He exiled us for eternity from his kingdom.
He gave us a new history,
and he gave us new lives,
new and horrible lives.

We grew once together, we created together,
but there was ambition in his eyes,
desire to govern it everything.

And we were innocent.

Now we paid our sin,
and we waited for the opportune moment
to be able to reawaken the truth
to teach the way of light,
and to give back peace to the Paradise. "


THE CREATION.

" Remember the day, the beautiful day,
that we created this universe.
With smiles, hopes,
with good intentions.
We made a pact of blood to not break the laws.

He betrayed it.

We in the beginning made a world of mud.
We created plants, animals.
Nothing that became aware.
And we enjoyed seeing them grow, to live.

But it was not enough for him.
And after the Fall he made Man.
He needed to hear that Man adored him,
that Man made him powerful,
He needed someone to recount his histories,
his lies.

And later he left Man.
When he got tired of Man, he left him in "freedom"
with his problems
with his fears
with his beliefs

He told Man that I was the culprit of his misfortunes,
and I could not speak.
He went away and he forgot them, that simple.
He looked for those who adored him with more force,
those who gave Him more tributes, more sacrifices.

Now he creates worlds in an instant,
and in the next moment he destroys them,
wiping them out for eternity,
taking their histories, their short histories with them.

And I can do nothing."
 
Scanty said:
RD_151, have you ever considered that the answer (or other possible explanation) to how life began is beyond our comprehension? It seems like something everyone should automatically consider to me, so excuse me if you have. But from the questions you are asking it seems that you are searching for some definite answer, wherever it may lie. Like - if not this thing, or this thing...then it has to be another thing.

WHY does it have to be so clear? You are only thinking with the tools of your own awareness and what has been brought into your attention by the world we know - consider the infinite amount of knowledge that humans don't have access to.

Of course there could be other explanations. You don't have to identify them. Just accept the possiblity.
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yeah, actually, I did consider that. That is why I chose none of the above in the evolution thread (nobody saw that i guess ;). I'm not sure what happened, both theories difficult for me to accept.
 
RD said:
assuming one would like to explore the issues of the orgin of life, of the origin of the universe etc etc... ultimately one must choose some form of evolution to explain it.
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RD...i realise that you were asking if there is any other explanation that has arisen to explain the origin of life other than evolution or creation...

But this quote from you explicitly says that one must choose some form of evolution to explain it. If you did consider what i said about an explanation possibly being beyond our comprehension, you would not say this. Because if the explanation is beyond our comprehension (which it probably is) then you would not be able to choose any of the explanations, evolutionary or otherwise, conjured up by humankind.
 
Ok, agreed.

I can't think of some alternative though. Thats is a problem. Indeed there must be, but currently, it seems that we can't even think of a plausible alternative.
 
Ayn Rand identified two fundamental theories regarding the universe: the Primacy of Consciousness vs the Primacy of Existence. The former says that existence is somehow a product of consciousness, the latter says that consciousness is a product of existence.

Those who believe in the primacy of consciousness will fall on the creationist side. Although that doesn't necessarily entail a god (reality could be created by human consciousness), it usually does.

Those who believe in the primacy of existence will be led, eventually, to believe in some form of evolution. They will follow the physical evidence, and the physical evidence points towards evolution.

It is possible to find people in history who were essentially primacy of existence, but believed in a god. That's only because they did not have the scientific evidence available for a non-created universe. For them, God was just something that was needed to get things started. Thomas Jefferson is a good example.
 
I was about to bring up the beginnings of a theory that would be based on consciousness. That's the key to it, i reckon.

I don't think that religion and science lie as far apart as people perceive them to be. And consciousness is where they overlap, if anywhere.
 
Scanty said:
If you did consider what i said about an explanation possibly being beyond our comprehension, you would not say this.
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Why should I believe that something is beyond human comprehension unless you've proven that it is? And if you're capable of proving that it is, then it's not.
 
Ardsgaine said:
Why should I believe that something is beyond human comprehension unless you've proven that it is? And if you're capable of proving that it is, then it's not.
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Scanty said:
If you did consider what i said about an explanation possibly being beyond our comprehension...
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I did not say believe. I said consider. Do not imply that I wanted someone to believe anything. I am the last person in the entire world who would do that.
What I said makes logical sense.

I do not myself, believe that the answer is definitely beyond our comprehension either. Neither do I believe that the answer is as simple as evolution or creation.

ALL possibilities should be considered. The answer, for all i know, could be any of the ones that humans have already come up with. Or maybe not. But I would never let my mind settle on one or the other.
 
LL,

Nah, I don't consider myself to be an athiest, far from it really. I'm not a religious person, not at all, but I'm not an atheist either. I guess we aren't so different in that.

I know, from my posts, I always sound atheist. That I'm not gonna argue religous values with people, after all, I'm not religious. Logic and reasoning are more fun, even if they make me sound like an atheist, or a communist, or whatever...

I'm sure its an easy mistake to make from my posts. I would assume that I was too ;)
 
Never really thought about it before. From a scientific perspective i really don't see what other plausible option there could be.
 
no they must believe what they believe is what it all comes down to. what is the most rational logical thought? thats basically what it is. just like Luis i believe in the big bang because its what my parents taught me as well as some of the evidence such as radiation in space. but there are theories. noone must believe anything. they must follow their beliefs and try to find their beliefs i say.
 
Btw LL, if you were refering to me agreeing with Luis about the "then who created God" arguement, you at least have to admit, that issue right there makes it a tough sell. When it comes to any hypothesis about God, well, I wouldn't even call it a hypothesis, because its untestable, and unprovable in any sense (at least that I'm aware of) its basically only about faith. Although, it make for a simple way out of my problem with the theory of evolution ;) Ok, maybe thats an easy out, but it works for me, at least for now. But I'm open to other possibilities, as always.
 
RD_151 said:
Btw LL, if you were refering to me agreeing with Luis about the "then who created God" arguement, you at least have to admit, that issue right there makes it a tough sell. When it comes to any hypothesis about God, well, I wouldn't even call it a hypothesis, because its untestable, and unprovable in any sense (at least that I'm aware of) its basically only about faith. Although, it make for a simple way out of my problem with the theory of evolution ;) Ok, maybe thats an easy out, but it works for me, at least for now. But I'm open to other possibilities, as always.
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Faith.
 
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