One Nation Under God

just because something is a "myth" doesn't mean it's not important. it may be HUGELY socially important.
 
Ask 50 people what the myth means. You'll probably get more than 50 answers. It's not the myth that matters, it's what the individual believes the myth means.
 
hmm. i think it goes beyond the individual. yeah i think all them germans getting riled up about (shared) myths sure had an effect in the 30s and 40s, and all thems commies sharing mythical beliefs aboot kapital and some weird teleological shit seems to have had some impact on the world stage for a while. fuckers.
 
FredFlash said:
What exactly is a "Christian Nation?"
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Quite frankly, a nation that is founded on the faith, morals, values, and teachings of Jesus Christ by its Christian founders.

FredFlash said:
Gotholic said:
Remove student prayer: "Prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State." [Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421, 425 (1962).]
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Your very first claim is false. The statement you present as an excerpt from the Engel v. Vitale Opinion is not in the Opinion. The Court never said it. Are you unable to read a legal opinion or just another liar, or both?

This is what the court actually said:


Because of the prohibition of the First Amendment against the enactment of any law "respecting an establishment of religion," which is made applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment, state officials may not compose an official state prayer and require that it be recited in the public schools of the State at the beginning of each school day - even if the prayer is denominationally neutral and pupils who wish to do so may remain silent or be excused from the room while the prayer is being recited. Pp. 422-436.
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It is true what you have said. But the point of the quoted material is to show that what was once allowed (school sanctioned prayer) is no longer permitted. In that respect, that quote still holds true.

FredFlash said:
Gotholic said:
A QUICK TOUR OF OUR CAPITOL REMINDS US THAT THIS NATION WAS BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATIONS OF CHRISTIAN BELIEF.

• The Supreme Court building portrays Moses holding the Ten Commandments through which the voice of God thunders "Thou shalt not murder."
• The Capitol Rotunda contains eight massive oil paintings, each depicting a major event in history. Four of these paintings portray Jesus Christ and the Bible: 1) Columbus landing on the shores of the New World, and holding high the cross of Jesus Christ, 2) a group of Dutch pilgrims gathered around a large, opened Bible, 3) a cross being planted in the soil, commemorating the discovery of the Mississippi River by the Explorer De Soto, and 4) the Christian baptism of the Indian convert Pocahontas.
• Statuary Hall contains life size statues of famous citizens that have been given by individual states. Medical missionary Marcus Whitman stands big as life, holding a Bible. Another statue is of missionary Junipero Serra, who founded the missions of Los Angeles, San Francisco, Montery and San Diego. Illinois sent a statue of Francis Willard, an associate of the evangelist Dwight L. Moody.
• Inscribed on the walls of the Library of Congress are quotes honoring the study of art, the wall is etched with "Nature is the art of God." A quote honoring Science says, "The heavens declare the glory of God." An inspiration honoring religion is Micah 6:8, "What doth the Lord require of thee but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God."
• On a wall in the Jefferson Memorial we read, "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated without His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
• As you climb the steps inside the Washington Monument you will notice stones with inscriptions on them. Some of them are, "Search the Scriptures" – "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it" – "The memory of the just is blessed" – "Holiness to the Lord" – and the top which says "Praise be to God!"
• Inscribed on the north wall of the Lincoln Memorial is the Presidents second inaugural address. Lincoln feared that God would not be satisfied until every drop of blood drawn by the lash is repaid by another drop of blood drawn by the sword.
Are these inscriptions just empty words, nostalgic sayings that no longer describe the ideals of our nation’s government? Consider the message of another inscription, this one at the base of a large statute entitled "Heritage," which is outside the main entrance of the National Archives. It reads: "The heritage of the past is the seed that brings forth the harvest of the future."

No seed flourishes if it is not cultivated.
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First, none of those items were the doing of the founding fathers. Second, all of them were probably done after the nation rejected Christ as the exclusive and absolute Lord over the conscience in the 1860's; and allowed Congress and the Presidents to trespass upon the jurisdiction of the Almighty whose only son, our Lord and Savior, ordained the separation of church and state in Matthew 22:21.
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First, it does not matter that it was not done by the founding fathers. Those examples are to show America's Christian heritage.

Second, Jesus did not ordain the seperation of Church and State - at least not in your mindset. Lets take a look at that passage in context...

Matthew 22:15-21

[15]Then the Pharisees went and took counsel how to entangle him in his talk.

[16] And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Hero'di-ans, saying, "Teacher, we know that you are true, and teach the way of God truthfully, and care for no man; for you do not regard the position of men.
[17] Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?"
[18] But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, "Why put me to the test, you hypocrites?
[19] Show me the money for the tax." And they brought him a coin.
[20] And Jesus said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?"
[21] They said, "Caesar's." Then he said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

I think this very short article words it best for you.
 
2minkey said:
hmm. i think it goes beyond the individual. yeah i think all them germans getting riled up about (shared) myths sure had an effect in the 30s and 40s, and all thems commies sharing mythical beliefs aboot kapital and some weird teleological shit seems to have had some impact on the world stage for a while. fuckers.
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Hitler's vision of the myth. Beyond that everything was his charisma and ability to convince others that his vision was the right one for his people. :shrug:
 
Gotholic said:
A QUICK TOUR OF OUR CAPITOL REMINDS US THAT THIS NATION WAS BUILT UPON THE FOUNDATIONS OF CHRISTIAN BELIEF.

• The Supreme Court building portrays Moses holding the Ten Commandments through which the voice of God thunders "Thou shalt not murder."
• The Capitol Rotunda contains eight massive oil paintings, each depicting a major event in history. Four of these paintings portray Jesus Christ and the Bible: 1) Columbus landing on the shores of the New World, and holding high the cross of Jesus Christ, 2) a group of Dutch pilgrims gathered around a large, opened Bible, 3) a cross being planted in the soil, commemorating the discovery of the Mississippi River by the Explorer De Soto, and 4) the Christian baptism of the Indian convert Pocahontas.
• Statuary Hall contains life size statues of famous citizens that have been given by individual states. Medical missionary Marcus Whitman stands big as life, holding a Bible. Another statue is of missionary Junipero Serra, who founded the missions of Los Angeles, San Francisco, Montery and San Diego. Illinois sent a statue of Francis Willard, an associate of the evangelist Dwight L. Moody.
• Inscribed on the walls of the Library of Congress are quotes honoring the study of art, the wall is etched with "Nature is the art of God." A quote honoring Science says, "The heavens declare the glory of God." An inspiration honoring religion is Micah 6:8, "What doth the Lord require of thee but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God."
• On a wall in the Jefferson Memorial we read, "God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated without His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
• As you climb the steps inside the Washington Monument you will notice stones with inscriptions on them. Some of them are, "Search the Scriptures" – "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it" – "The memory of the just is blessed" – "Holiness to the Lord" – and the top which says "Praise be to God!"
• Inscribed on the north wall of the Lincoln Memorial is the Presidents second inaugural address. Lincoln feared that God would not be satisfied until every drop of blood drawn by the lash is repaid by another drop of blood drawn by the sword.
Are these inscriptions just empty words, nostalgic sayings that no longer describe the ideals of our nation’s government? Consider the message of another inscription, this one at the base of a large statute entitled "Heritage," which is outside the main entrance of the National Archives. It reads: "The heritage of the past is the seed that brings forth the harvest of the future."

No seed flourishes if it is not cultivated.
Click to expand...

yeah you can see the virgin mary in overhead photographs of the interstate highway system. look hard enough, you'll see it eventually.

but all that shit don't diminish the fact that the dominant ideology of the thinkers behind the founding of 'merica was rationalist-humanist, not jeebus-ist. jeebus-ist comes from another american tradition which is strong but off in a field whipped into an imaginary frenzy with the chanting and the poodle tossing, goat sacrifices and all that. you seen 'em?
 
2minkey said:
yeah you can see the virgin mary in overhead photographs of the interstate highway system. look hard enough, you'll see it eventually.
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What does that have to do with anything? :shrug:

2minkey said:
but all that shit don't diminish the fact that the dominant ideology of the thinkers behind the founding of 'merica was rationalist-humanist, not jeebus-ist. jeebus-ist comes from another american tradition which is strong but off in a field whipped into an imaginary frenzy with the chanting and the poodle tossing, goat sacrifices and all that. you seen 'em?
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I have already backed up my position that it was indeed Jesus. You're either not paying attention or merely being dismissive.
 
chcr said:
...which, of course, does not explain all of history. It does however, do a very good job of explaining certain events in history including your example. There is no "unified history theory" held by all, now is there?
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nope, which cool, because if thar was things would get boring and predictable.

oh, wait, there is a unified history theory... it's all about jeebus! yeah!
 
Gotholic said:
I have already backed up my position that it was indeed Jesus. You're either not paying attention or merely being dismissive.
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it's only important that you convince yourself.
 
2minkey said:
nope, which cool, because if thar was things would get boring and predictable.

oh, wait, there is a unified history theory... it's all about jeebus! yeah!
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No, that's A) a myth ;), not a theory and B) hardly unified. Christians only make up about thirty percent of the worlds population and they can't even agree about it amongst themselves. Neither can any of the other religions, but they're all fun to watch.
 
2minkey said:
yeah you can see the virgin mary in overhead photographs of the interstate highway system. look hard enough, you'll see it eventually.

but all that shit don't diminish the fact that the dominant ideology of the thinkers behind the founding of 'merica was rationalist-humanist, not jeebus-ist. jeebus-ist comes from another american tradition which is strong but off in a field whipped into an imaginary frenzy with the chanting and the poodle tossing, goat sacrifices and all that. you seen 'em?
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You are right that they were more free thinkers and more humanist but they were still Christian. They just seemed to feel that they would not have Christianity or any religion be a state religion nor endorsed by it.
 
freako104 said:
You are right that they were more free thinkers and more humanist but they were still Christian. They just seemed to feel that they would not have Christianity or any religion be a state religion nor endorsed by it.
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right on, they may have been christian but the 'spirit of the age' - and the shared committment to certain ideals - was far more of that of the enlightenment than of jeapus.... at least in the circles of the elites that penned the constitution.
 
Gotholic said:
If there is anything that escaped my verification process I apologize. I do not intend to mislead anyone.
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Remove student prayer: "Prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State." [Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421, 425 (1962).]
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It is hard to believe that you did not intend to mislead. The first quotation you provided was doctored to mislead your reader into understanding that the Engel Court held that all prayer was forbidden, when in fact only "the State's use of the Regents' prayer" was held unconstitutional ,because "an establishment of religion must at least mean that in this country it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government."

The petitioners contend among other things that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that in this country it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.
​
 
FredFlash said:
What words in the Constitution do you read to say that the U.S. is a Christian nation?
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Dude...did you return here just to stir up this stuff?

BTW...that "wall of seperation" does not exist in the Constitution. Never has. That line was taken from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury(?) Baptists during his presidency. The whole "seperation of church and state" argument is built upon that one sentence in a personal letter...
 
Gato_Solo said:
Dude...did you return here just to stir up this stuff?

BTW...that "wall of seperation" does not exist in the Constitution. Never has.
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What is your definition of "wall of separation?"

That line was taken from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury(?) Baptists during his presidency.
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We're talking about an intellectual concept, not the name which many assign to it. The principle of no union of church and state is gathered from the words of the U. S. Constitution, not the letters of Thomas Jefferson.

The whole "separation of church and state" argument is built upon that one sentence in a personal letter...
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Where did you get such a silly idea?
 
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