The future of hate...

[chcr]

I'm 30 years old and i watch films from the sixties and fifties and am horrified by what i see. Black kids having to face mobs if they want to attend white schools, police beating peaceful black protesters and parts of the nation that the kkk had such a stranglehold on that even the FBI feared them. Fifty years ago blacks couldn't ride on busses without being assigned to the rear in many parts of the nation. Fifty years ago blacks simply did not have freedom in this country. Today they do. That doesn't mean that all the problems are gone but i would think that to a person who had to experience those trials it would be a world of difference.

You're talking about symptoms, I'm talking about the problem. Ask a few black or hispanic people. Better still, ask a few arabic people. I have a hispanic friend here that can't go into Circuit City with a tie on without someone following his ass around to make sure he doesn't steal. The forms have changed, thing have certainly improved some, but not as much as you think, I'm afraid. At least half the whites I know clearly think blacks are less intelligent and less trustworthy than whites. They would never say so in so many words, but you can read between the lines. I'm sorry hex, but while things have changed some for the better, it's not enough.

 

[Squiggy]

have to agree with hex here...


and squiggy, stop using the poor-me method, 'cause it ain't working

Do I have to?

 

[chcr]

BTW:

hate
1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy

emotion
2 a : the affective aspect of consciousness : FEELING b : a state of feeling c : a psychic and physical reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling and physiologically involving changes that prepare the body for immediate vigorous action

 

[HubbaHubba]

people assosiate things, (think pavlov)

black people hit you on various occations, way back you would assosiate blacks with getting hit and would hate them. the you grow up around people like this and your veiws are altered by them etc etc.

Its a triggered emotion originally, but it leads to something else

and it didnt start with beatings it started with thinking skincolour ment something about the person, dunno im too tired to type

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

You're talking about symptoms, I'm talking about the problem.

So if you're at the end of a rope you're not concerned with the symptoms? The socalled symptoms you're speaking of are the reason so many died.

I'm sorry hex, but while things have changed some for the better, it's not enough.

I can agree with much of what you say but let me note that i never once said it was enough. It's not enough until racism is wiped out completely.

 

[chcr]

So if you're at the end of a rope you're not concerned with the symptoms? The socalled symptoms you're speaking of are the reason so many died.

Yes, but addressing the symptoms does little to cure the underlying problem. As I said earlier, I think it's hard-wired, it goes back to before we even had rational thought, perhaps. I'm not sure it can be overcome, just dealt with.

WASHINGTON, June 9, 1998 (AFP) - Three men with suspected ties to white supremacist groups were charged Tuesday with the grisly murder of a black hitchhiker, who apparently was dragged to his death on Texas dirt road.

If it's still happening, then the problem hasn't been addressed. Actually, hex, I do think that it is changing. Very very slowly. As I say, talk to some minority people, you'll be amazed at how different their outlook is than yours (note: be careful to whom you bring it up, though).

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Yes, but addressing the symptoms does little to cure the underlying problem. As I said earlier, I think it's hard-wired, it goes back to before we even had rational thought, perhaps. I'm not sure it can be overcome, just dealt with.


If it's still happening, then the problem hasn't been addressed. Actually, hex, I do think that it is changing. Very very slowly. As I say, talk to some minority people, you'll be amazed at how different their outlook is than yours (note: be careful to whom you bring it up, though).

You know ch, i'm not an idiot. I live in an area that has 25% minorities.
I do communicate with minorities and no one i've ever spoken to has ever tried to make the distinction that you are making now. I doubt there's a single black American over the age of 50 that would think it only slighly easier to live now than in 1950. Sure the problems still exist but not near to the extent they once did. How about you try asking the youth of today about their experiences with racism and then ask their parents. Now i hate racism. I wouldn't have started this thread if i didn't think it was an important issue in our present & future. But i feel it's important to recognize our successes in this area as well as our failures. Only in this way do we find out what works.

 

[chcr]

I don't think your an idiot, hex. Maybe it's just where I've lived in my life, but I find bigotry and racism to be alive and well. One of my best friends is a 54 year old black man who says his biggest worry in life is that the white majority will get tired of Jesse Jackson and his ilk and start killing them again. I think he's joking about that, but when the pick up truck incident happened, his first comment was "nothing has really changed, has it?" I disagree, some things have changed (he knows that too when he's not reacting emotionally). I'm just saying that I don't think it's nearly as improved as you seem to think.

 

[Gonz]

"nothing has really changed, has it?"

I'm with Hex on this one. Of course we aren't the perfect little homogenous group but 50 years ago, that story wouldn't have made the local news, much less the national. It was sensational, not daily. People of all races came to the defense of the victim. It took over 400 years of mistreatment to just put an end to it. I think we've come a marvelously long way in a relatively short time.

BTW, tell your friend we're already tired of Jesse & want to kill him

 

[chcr]

BTW, tell your friend we're already tired of Jesse & want to kill him

So does he, in fact, he'd probably help.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

BTW, tell your friend we're already tired of Jesse & want to kill him

 

[a13antichrist]

Sorry buddy i don't buy it. Anger is a triggered response to a sense of injustice. It's a conscious decision to hate. Racism occurs nowhere else in the animal kingdom. I think it's important to recognize the distinction between hate & anger.

Hatred is not Racism. Racism is not hatred. Racism can be inspired by hate or hate can be inspired by racism. Racism can also be inspired by ignorance, with no mention of hate anywhere in the story.
Hate is very much an emotion. Racism is a concept, your "idea" if you like. You're making a very fundamental error assuming that they are one and the same.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Hatred is not Racism. Racism is not hatred. Racism can be inspired by hate or hate can be inspired by racism. Racism can also be inspired by ignorance, with no mention of hate anywhere in the story.

I agree.

Hate is very much an emotion. Racism is a concept, your "idea" if you like. You're making a very fundamental error assuming that they are one and the same.

I should have been more clear. I do not think that hatred and racism are the same and i shouldn't have used them interchangably. Racism is hatred for a race or tribe. I'll have to disagree agin however with the statement that hate is an emotion.

According to M-W online
1 a obsolete : DISTURBANCE b : EXCITEMENT
2 a : the affective aspect of consciousness : FEELING b : a
state of feeling c : a psychic and physical reaction (as anger
or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling and
physiologically involving changes that prepare the body for
immediate vigorous action

The initial response or emotion is anger. You decide to hate. That's the next step. Example: Someone kills a loved one of yours. You don't automatically hate them. Although everyone will become angry, some will decide to hate the perpitrator while others will decide to forgive them and let go of the anger and submit only to the sadness of their missing loved one. I realise that to many it sounds ridiculous but it does happen.

 

[a13antichrist]

Love is not an immediate response either. Neither is sadness, because often people will be shocked before being sad. An emotion doesn't not exist just because you felt a different one first. Hate IS an emotion because quite simply, Hate is defined as "the emotion characterised by a feeling of loathing".

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

Love is not an immediate response either.

I agree. It's a choice to love.

Neither is sadness, because often people will be shocked before being sad.

Now we're really beginning to break things down. I hadn't thought about shock until now but my initial response would be that shock is not an emotion at all but mearly an amplification of an emotion. Shock is not only associated with fear or sadness but joy as well, say, winning the lottery.

 

[a13antichrist]

So what? I was talking about sadness, not shock. By your reasoning you couldn't be sad that your loved-one is dead if you felt angry first.

And ask anyone who's ever really been in love, they'll most certainly say that is was definitely NOT a choice.
You choose to open yourself to the possibility. Nobody chooseswho they're going to fall in love with, just like nobody chooses who they're going to hate.

 

[HeXp£Øi±]

So what? I was talking about sadness, not shock. By your reasoning you couldn't be sad that your loved-one is dead if you felt angry first.

Sure you could, but people are different. Some would feel sadness first, others anger.

And ask anyone who's ever really been in love, they'll most certainly say that is was definitely NOT a choice.
You choose to open yourself to the possibility. Nobody chooseswho they're going to fall in love with, just like nobody chooses who they're going to hate.

I know what it is to love and i know what it is to hate. The first 23 years of my life you wouldn't have even wanted to know me.(not that you do now) I hated everyone around me because i wanted to. Love is a natural feeling but not an emotion. Same with hate.
There are people that never love because they are afraid they'll be hurt. I've been in love but only because i allowed it not because i was spewing with love from within. You cannot stop sadness or joy or fear, you'll experience all of these at some point in your life but you can refrain from hating or loving if you so choose. It's just a simple fact.

 

[a13antichrist]

You cannot stop sadness or joy or fear, you'll experience all of these at some point in your life but you can refrain from hating or loving if you so choose. It's just a simple fact.

I can stop being sad if I decide to. Anyone can stop an autonomous emotion by rationalising it - sadness and fear especially. Thousands of broken vases across the world suggest that even though you CAN stop loving if you choose, it's hardly an easy thing. And most of the time you're stopping because the person now disgusts you. Hate stops either when you forgive - you don't just decide to stop hating your daughter's rapist overnight - or when you realise your hatred was misplaced - which is precisely when joy, fear, sadness, anger and love will also abate.

I can see the point you're making but I disagree that it's enough of a distinction to warrant removal from the "emotion" category.