The status quo is disaster

Gonz said:
Head start? In the 1650s, we had a country full of forests & plains, grasslands & marshes, mountains & valleys. The rest of the planet had civilization. We started at zero. Those who created writing & sewage systems & democracy & Reopublics did so & then stopped advancing. They did those things 1,2,5, 10 thousand years ago...not 200.

Ultimately, what so many (including most here) miss is what makes the USA the greatest...freedom. We're not necessaritly smarter or better, per se. Notice how all those immigrants come here to invent good stuff. Why didn't they do it at "home"? Lack of freedom. Today, we (all of us, including the US) think that we need government to do stuff (embryonic research) when private indusrtry & freedom allows so much more...faster, better & cheaper, Space Ship One

And some of us sure do miss all those forests and plains and grasslands and mountains and marshes and valleys. Much more pleasant on the eye than the walMarts and outlet malls and Chuck E. Cheese and McDonalds and parking garages and anonymous subdivisions we now call suburbs.

Some of us miss the freedoms that were taken away from us by this wonderful wrecking ball of a government you adore so.

I do agree that private sector is far more preferable than government stranglehold on everything. And this from a government employee.
 
Hmm, another nation that isn't interested in voting away their sovereignty?
What is up with them folks over there?
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By ARTHUR MAX, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 22 minutes ago

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - Dutch voters worried about social benefits and immigration overwhelmingly rejected the European Union constitution Wednesday in what could be a knockout blow for a charter meant to create a power rivaling the United States.
link
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Heh heh yeah rivaling the US
a great ploy to get folks to turn over their rights to some supra government?

As if 25 disparate nations could get together and do anything!

Hey what's up with that vaunted EURO?

euro.JPG
 
Nothing to do with sovereignty. More socialism, less freedom.

worried about social benefits


SnP said:
And some of us sure do miss all those forests and plains and grasslands and mountains and marshes and valleys.

Believe me, there is still plenty of it to go around. I'd like more but, hey, with a population rapidly approaching 300 million, what do you expect?
 
Lopan said:
China is an interesting case. 1000 + years ago it was a major empire then it went into decline and now its coming back. Yet freedom has never played a large part in its society, afterall the wall was built to keep people in not out.

The Great Wall was originally built in the Spring, Autumn, and Warring States Periods as a defensive fortification by the three states: Yan, Zhao and Qin. The Great Wall went through constant extensions and repairs in later dynasties. In fact, it began as independent walls for different states when it was first built, and did not become the "Great" wall until the Qin Dynasty. Emperor Qin Shihuang succeeded in his effort to have the walls joined together to fend off the invasions from the Huns in the north after the unification of China. Since then, the Great Wall has served as a monument of the Chinese nation throughout history. A visit to the Great Wall is like a tour through the history backwards; it brings tourists great excitement in each step of the wall.

You were saying?
 
Gato_Solo said:

travel-china-guide-logo.gif


Sometimes young man it's not the story but who wrote it. government sponsored me thinks.

THE GREAT WALL OF CHINA

by John H. Lienhard

Click here for audio of Episode 1590.

Today, a 2300-year-old wall. The University of Houston's College of Engineering presents this series about the machines that make our civilization run, and the people whose ingenuity created them.

Sooner or later, any series such as this must reach the Great Wall of China -- that cryptic, brooding snake, girdling a tenth of Earth's circumference. The Great Wall is, in fact, an array of shifting forms that spans millennia as well as miles.

Walls are woven into Chinese culture. The shabbiest village and the grandest city alike will boast a wall. The first Great Wall was a three-thousand-mile structure built of tamped earth. It was begun under the whip of the tyrannical emperor Qin, starting in 221 BC. Qin's people built upon earlier pieces of the wall, some of which had been in place for 150 years -- maybe longer.

The obvious purpose was to wall out northern barbarians. But the repressive paranoia of the regime suggests that Qin brought a great deal of pure self-aggrandizement to the project. Qin also built the underground terra cotta army of Xi-an. And his wall was thirty times the length of Hadrian's Wall -- built to keep northern invaders out of England.

After Qin's death in 208 BC, his evil empire collapsed. The far more humane Han dynasty soon replaced it. The Hans lasted over four centuries and left a huge technological legacy. They gave us paper. Within two generations they'd beaten back the northern invaders. Then they extended the Wall still farther west, all the way across the Gobi Desert. Of course, that merely established its location. The Wall didn't yet have its present appearance.

Down through the first millennium AD, various dynasties built more pieces. The Wall now extends from the Yellow Sea, across Northern China, below Mongolia, and along a big stretch of the Old Silk Road. It ends in what the Chinese called The Last Gate of the World -- in Central Asia, on China's far west border.

But the Wall we recognize came much later. It was largely the work of the fourteenth-century Ming dynasty. They were the civil engineers who built the Wall to over thirty feet high. They filled it with earth and faced it with brick or stone. They built it wide enough to accommodate a marching troop of soldiers. Theirs was the Wall with watchtowers every hundred yards. By the time the Ming dynasty was done, over 6300 miles of Wall (with its many loops and digressions) sprawled across northern China.

So what was the legacy of this vast effort? It probably did serve the purpose of keeping invaders out. But it was finished just as the new cannons were being perfected. Artillery was about to put an end to all great walls. A century ago, Robert Frost looked at traditional New England wall-building, and he mused upon its purposes. He said,

Oh, just another kind of out-door game;
...
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall ...
I'm John Lienhard, at the University of Houston, where we're interested in the way inventive minds work.

(Theme music)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Needham, J., The Shorter Science & Civilisation in China: Vol. 5 (abridged: Colin A. Ronan) Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, Chapter 2, 1995.
See also the following web site for information about the Great Wall:

http://www.discovery.com/stories/history/greatwall/greatwall.html
Many web sites give the full text of Robert Frost's Mending Wall poem. See, e.g.:

http://www.yoga.com/raw/readings/MendingWall.html
 
AlladinSane said:
Interesting, around these parts is the dollar which is falling, while the Euro keeps more stable.
The word your looking for is propaganda.

PS, you do note that in the graph it's the dollar that's falling, right?
 
Well I may be blind but looks to me it's American Dollars for 1 Euro. Was 1.37 now is around 1.21. That means you need less dollars to buy an Euro...
 
AlladinSane said:
Well I may be blind but looks to me it's American Dollars for 1 Euro. Was 1.37 now is around 1.21. That means you need less dollars to buy an Euro...
Doh, sorry I read it backwards. :lloyd:
 
Which is better for exports thus generating business, except it would be if it weren't for the anal protectionism of the franco - european business model. Well not for much longer :D
 
Lopan said:
Sometimes young man it's not the story but who wrote it. government sponsored me thinks.

So...all of a sudden...a non-Chinese college professeur is more knowledgable about the Great Wall of China than the folks who actually built it. :rofl: I hope your tongue was firmly in your cheek when you said that. :rofl4: It's that type of elitist bullshit that's destroying credibility in 'intellectuals' world-wide.

BTW...you did know that the cannon was invented in China, right? ;)
 
You do realise your talking about the chinese government here? Why would they say that they have a history of paranoia and wanting to keep the population in? Also the wall didn't stretch the whole way it was symbolic much like hadrians wall.
 
Lopan said:
You do realise your talking about the chinese government here? Why would they say that they have a history of paranoia and wanting to keep the population in? Also the wall didn't stretch the whole way it was symbolic much like hadrians wall.

Hate to burst you bubble, but the Chinese have always been a bit xenophobic and insular. Remember Marco Polo? The wall was not to keep the population in. It was to keep the Mongols out.

1. It was cheaper to build the wall than to man that long-ass border. Still is cheaper to wall somebody out than to fight them.
2. The towers were built facing both out and in, granted, but consider this...How perfect is a wall when it comes to defense? You have to be prepared to face an enemy that can breach your wall, so you prepare for that contingency.
3.
The Wall served well. Only when a dynasty had weakened from within were invaders from the north able to advance and conquer. Both the Mongols (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368) and the Manchurians (Qing Dynasty,1644-1911) were able take power, not because of weakness in the Wall but because of weakness in the government and the poverty of the people. They took advantage of rebellion from within and stepped into the void of power without extended wars.
Your guy is barking up the wrong tree. ;)



I don't trust the Chinese government, but I trust pseudo-intellectuals less.
 
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