The STUPIDEST idea I have seen in a long, long time

[jimpeel]

Yeah, that's it. Let's capture CO2 and bury it! Of course, we'll have to create CO2 to do it; but who's watching anyway?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090117.FUEL17/TPStory/Environment

CARBON-NEUTRAL FUEL: A NEW APPROACH

KURT KLEINER

January 17, 2009

Lower fuel prices will ease the effects of recession for some, but if it spurs consumption, the result will inevitably be higher carbon-dioxide emissions. In other words, pressure to find a carbon-neutral fuel is greater than ever.

The goal is to find something that won't add greenhouse gases to the atmosphere when it burns. The answer, according to one Canadian researcher, could be a fuel made with carbon taken out of the atmosphere in the first place.

David Keith, the Canada Research Chair in Energy and the Environment and a professor at the University of Calgary, suggests that a clean synthetic gasoline can be made by combining hydrogen and CO{-2} recovered from the air.

Hydrogen alone has already been proposed as a carbon-neutral fuel because it doesn't release carbon when burned. But there are drawbacks. It will probably have to be made from coal or natural gas, in a process that produces leftover carbon. It is notoriously difficult to ship and store, since it tends to leak out of the smallest cracks. And, even if those obstacles were overcome, the problem remains that every gas-powered vehicle now in use would have to be replaced.

Prof. Keith, along with Frank Zeman of Columbia University in New York, proposes a three-step process.

First, produce hydrogen, using coal or natural gas, and bury the leftover carbon dioxide.

Second, capture some of the carbon dioxide that is already present in the atmosphere.

Third, combine the captured CO{-2} with the hydrogen to create a synthetic fuel similar to gasoline. When the fuel is burned, the CO{-2} returns to the air it came from.

"Essentially, we're using the CO{-2} twice," Prof. Keith says.

Before production can begin, however, carbon-capture technology requires further development. Prof. Keith and others have experimented with chemical processes that can pull CO{-2} out of the atmosphere, but a large-scale operation that can capture significant amounts at a reasonable cost does not yet exist.

In the long run, Prof. Keith says, the cost of switching to carbon-neutral hydrocarbons might make more economic sense than switching to a hydrogen or biofuel economy.

"If you think you want to make a transportation system 50 years from now that has lower CO{-2} impacts, one of your choices is still to have hydrocarbon fuels, but to make them some other way."

*****

1. Coal or natural gas is broken down to produce CO2, which is stored underground, and hydrogen.

2.A carbon-capture plant collects CO2 from the atmosphere

3. The hydrogen and CO2 are combined to produce gasoline-like fuel

4. Cars run on the synthetic fuel. The CO_ they produce is offset by the carbon captured in step 2


NINIAN CARTER/THE GLOBE AND MAIL

SOURCES: UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY; CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY, PITTSBURG, PA

 

[MrBishop]

Not carbon neutral...not that it makes much of a difference.
They should be aiming for something to replace gasoline...regardless of whether it's 'carbon neutral' or not.

 

[catocom]

if it weren't for carbon, there would be no life.

Like everything else...if they think there's too much of it, figure out a way
to make it into something useful.

I dunno, like pencil lead or some thing.
Use solar to do it...we got time.

 

[MrBishop]

We already make graphite pencils.

We need to plant more trees. Easiest way to both beautify the land, capture carbon dioxide, avoid erosion, cut the wind, etc etc...

KISS

 

[catocom]

I know graphite is plentiful, that was a mere example,,,maybe not a great one, but to the point.

on trees, I agree...
I'm like Nugent...I plant every year.

 

[randomJACKASS]

Ya know, long years ago many people would have thought that injecting virusus or bacteria even in a weakened state to prevent the diseases they cause was complete lunacy. I am no scientist and I don't know if this is the same kind of deal, but tell us Jim, where did you get your PHD in science?

 

[MrBishop]

Carbon capture isn't the faulty portion of the equation. It's more the use of hydrogen as a fuel that's the issue.

Adding 'carbon capture' makes hydrogen fuel cells more 'green' and attractive than previously viewed. It's still energy heavy to create hydrogen.

I don't have a PhD tho' , so you don't have to take my word for it. Getting RSS newsfeeds on the hard-sci magazines helps tho'

 

[Professur]

Ya know, long years ago many people would have thought that injecting virusus or bacteria even in a weakened state to prevent the diseases they cause was complete lunacy. I am no scientist and I don't know if this is the same kind of deal, but tell us Jim, where did you get your PHD in science?

More inventions (and raw science) have been done in the past few thousand years using basic observational skills than have ever been acheived by a PhD. If bits of paper filled in by *experts* impress you that much, I've got a couple of dozen here abouts you can drool over while the big folk talk, M'kay? A PhD means you relearned what someone else before you figured out. More often than not, the person didn't have a degree. He might even have worked as a lowly patent clerk.

 

[randomJACKASS]

More inventions (and raw science) have been done in the past few thousand years using basic observational skills than have ever been acheived by a PhD. If bits of paper filled in by *experts* impress you that much, I've got a couple of dozen here abouts you can drool over while the big folk talk, M'kay? A PhD means you relearned what someone else before you figured out. More often than not, the person didn't have a degree. He might even have worked as a lowly patent clerk.

Yeah obviously, but my point is, that sometimes in science things that seem ridiculous work really nicely.

 

[2minkey]

More inventions (and raw science) have been done in the past few thousand years using basic observational skills than have ever been acheived by a PhD. If bits of paper filled in by *experts* impress you that much, I've got a couple of dozen here abouts you can drool over while the big folk talk, M'kay? A PhD means you relearned what someone else before you figured out. More often than not, the person didn't have a degree. He might even have worked as a lowly patent clerk.

you're absolutely correct in that most technological progress has been made by none other than observation and laborious hard work, often by those with little or no connected education.

however advances in theoretical sciences - the really wacky shit - are typically the domain of phds.

while a phd does mean that you've learned what someone else before you has, there is often originality in the lowly, boring, almost never readable end-to-end phd dissertation, which in an of itself is merely prep for future work. there was some originality in mine, as horrible as it was...

 

[H2O boy]

Yeah obviously, but my point is, that sometimes in science things that seem ridiculous work really nicely.

too bad it doesnt carry over into congress. if it did, barack might have a chance of looking like something besides an idiot

but it doesnt, and neither does he

to bad, so sad

 

[JJR512]

More inventions (and raw science) have been done in the past few thousand years using basic observational skills than have ever been acheived by a PhD. If bits of paper filled in by *experts* impress you that much, I've got a couple of dozen here abouts you can drool over while the big folk talk, M'kay?

I absolutely agree with you so far...

A PhD means you relearned what someone else before you figured out. More often than not, the person didn't have a degree. He might even have worked as a lowly patent clerk.

Here is where I begin to feel that you're not entirely accurate about what a PhD means...

...while a phd does mean that you've learned what someone else before you has, there is often originality in the lowly, boring, almost never readable end-to-end phd dissertation, which in an of itself is merely prep for future work. there was some originality in mine, as horrible as it was...

This is what I understood was required for a PhD. Well of course you have to start out by learning what your predecessors already figured out. If you don't start by learning what's already been learned then you'd have to start by figuring that stuff out for yourself and then you probably wouldn't have much time left over in your life for figuring out anything new, it seems to me. But getting a PhD ends with doing some original research or expanding on something that's already been done and coming up with some new conclusions or expanding on old ones or perhaps even attempting to disprove old conclusions by others, then writing it up in the drier-than-Sahara dissertations as 2minkey mentioned. Of course, I don't have any direct experience with getting a PhD myself, so I could be wrong.

Anyway, you can question the real-world value of a diploma or certification all you want, but there is no denying the value such documents have to employers. There are some things that I can do pretty damned well but I can't get a job doing those things because I don't have the signed piece of paper that says I'm good at doing those things.

 

[jimpeel]

We already make graphite pencils.

We need to plant more trees. Easiest way to both beautify the land, capture carbon dioxide, avoid erosion, cut the wind, etc etc...

KISS

Trees gather more heat making GW hotter in the Northern hemisphere than in the Southern hemisphere.

There is more forested area in the United States today than there was in 1620 when the Pilgrims landed.

Plants capture CO2 when they are alive but give it back up when they die. The leaves and other chaff from plants also gives up its CO2 when it decays.

Plants are not the answer and may be part of the problem.

 

[jimpeel]

Two guys are standing talking one day.

The first says "I have a BS in science, you know what that means?"

The second guy says I think everyone knows what that means."

The first guy says "I also have an MS, you know what that means?"

The second guy says "Yep. More of the same."

The first guy then says "I also have a PhD, you know what that means?"

The second guy says "Oh, yeah. Piled higher and deeper."

 

[jimpeel]

By the way, folks. Every time you log onto the Internet, pick up the telephone, or do a banking transaction you are very likely doing so thanks to some of the things I designed while working in the fiber optics industry.

Every time you fill up your tank, some of that gas may have passed through some of the equipment I designed when I was in the petroleum industry.

Every time you use communications of any type you may be using signals being beamed from satellite storage equipment I helped design when I worked in that industry.

Every time you fly on a 757 or 767 you are riding on a plane which the horizontal stabilizer was tested and certified on equipment I built.

Every time you see a V-Tech product at Wal-Mart, Toys-R-Us, etc. it was certified on their FCC certification site in Hong Kong designed, built and installed by me.

Every time you open a can of soda, you likely can be thankful for the canning line inspection equipment that keeps you safe which I helped to design.

Need hospitalization? That air mattress that moves you every few minutes was developed using technology I helped to develop.

Yep. there are little pieces of me out there everywhere.

And I did it all without the need for a PhD.

Just thought you'd like to cogitate on that.

 

[randomJACKASS]

By the way, folks. Every time you log onto the Internet, pick up the telephone, or do a banking transaction you are very likely doing so thanks to some of the things I designed while working in the fiber optics industry.

Every time you fill up your tank, some of that gas may have passed through some of the equipment I designed when I was in the petroleum industry.

Every time you use communications of any type you may be using signals being beamed from satellite storage equipment I helped design when I worked in that industry.

Every time you fly on a 757 or 767 you are riding on a plane which the horizontal stabilizer was tested and certified on equipment I built.

Every time you see a V-Tech product at Wal-Mart, Toys-R-Us, etc. it was certified on their FCC certification site in Hong Kong designed, built and installed by me.

Every time you open a can of soda, you likely can be thankful for the canning line inspection equipment that keeps you safe which I helped to design.

Need hospitalization? That air mattress that moves you every few minutes was developed using technology I helped to develop.

Yep. there are little pieces of me out there everywhere.

And I did it all without the need for a PhD.

Just thought you'd like to cogitate on that.

Well by golly let's sign over deed and title of the world to this guy! Why have we not elected him God by now?!? He's obviously better than everyone else here! Shucks none of us other dumbasses have contributed anything that compares, I am sure!


Look I am not even denying that possibly you have actually helped with the things you say, even if it is only your word that there is any truth to it. Still, though to me, everyone on this board is just another random jackass. It still doesn't make you an expert in everything and I still would not take your word that this is a terrible idea, even if I grant you as everything you claim to be!

There is a truth to the idea that great innovations often come from unlearned men. There is also a lot of reason for learning and such men make their contributions as well. Sometimes the stumbling block of the very learned is that they rely too heavily on what they think they know to see things wondrous and revolutionary. Sometimes the problem with the bright but untrained and ambitious may be that they have great ideas but not the learning to keep their ideas from ending disastrously.

You obviously have no self esteem problems Jim, and kudos for that, honestly that is a great thing and I mean it when I say that. You are an arrogant prick though who ought to learn a little humility no matter what you have actually accomplished. Don't get me wrong, I own that failing to some degree too at times, but believe me you do have a serious issue with arrogance and grandiosity. Ya might wanna get it checked?

What exactly do you do for a living? Please don't pretend you didn't read my post either, as I understand the ignore feature and see you do read posts of people you have on ignore, and sometimes respond directly and indirectly to them anyway. I'm honestly not trying to be an ass here. I just think it might be a lot more worthwhile for you to post this in way that is more like; 'this seems like an incredibly stupid idea to me', rather than; 'this is stupid and wrong because I know better about this end everything else to boot'. Then we might have enlightened discussion. You honestly come off like you think you are better than everyone else here, and that we are so privileged that you put up with us!

Obviously you are intelligent and I don't doubt the possibility that what you say about yourself is true, but seriously get off your soapbox, (mountain top?) get off your cross too because we need the wood!. You ain't better than anyone here! Politics are opinion based, and I understand how passionate you, Gonz, spike, H20 boy, Cerise, me, hell all of us are about it, and I know that can be problematic, yet I respect you all for you right to be so, but honestly you take this to levels I have never seen before! A little diplomacy could go a long way.

For my part I want to apologize for having done the same, as I know I have, and I am sure will again sometimes, but I do promise to try to be better. It is my failing I admit it and I own it, but don't go thinking you don't provoke it!

 

[randomJACKASS]

Oh yeah and BTW any fool knows that it's plankton that eat and convert the most CO2, thus the ocean's ecosystem is most vital in this equation. Trees are good, but by no means the entire picture.

 

[2minkey]

dude, just give it up. put peel on ignore and be done with it. you can't argue with a wall, and you're becoming one yourself.

though i wonder, you with out your peel.... like hamas without israel...

*poof*

into thin air.

 

[MrBishop]

Trees gather more heat making GW hotter in the Northern hemisphere than in the Southern hemisphere.

There is more forested area in the United States today than there was in 1620 when the Pilgrims landed.

Plants capture CO2 when they are alive but give it back up when they die. The leaves and other chaff from plants also gives up its CO2 when it decays.

Plants are not the answer and may be part of the problem.

..and what say you on the subject of soil erosion and wind erosion?

Re: Forest cover

1620-

1920-

http://www.iucn.org/about/work/programmes/forest/fp_resources/fp_resources_forest_changes.cfm

I think that your numbers are off, Jim.

 

[spike]

Two guys are standing talking one day.

The first says "I have a BS in science, you know what that means?"

The second guy says I think everyone knows what that means."

The first guy says "I also have an MS, you know what that means?"

The second guy says "Yep. More of the same."

The first guy then says "I also have a PhD, you know what that means?"

The second guy says "Oh, yeah. Piled higher and deeper."

Those silly people and their silly advanced learning of things. The uneducated are so superior.