The truth about Truth

MrBishop

MrBishop

Well-Known Member
Most people think that truth and lies are polar opposites. I must admit that the way that our language is put together would make you think so. I've done some thinking on the matter recently, while driving (best time to think really), and have come to the conclusion IMHO that not only are they not polar opposites, they have no relation to each other.

Consider this example.

A 16yr old girl is raped and killed. After an exhaustive search using what little information that was available, a young man (also 16) is arrested. His father talks to him and asks him lots of questions...the answers that he gets and his knowledge of his own son's character lead him to say:

"My son did not kill this girl!"

Is he lying or telling the truth? The answer is...

A day later, the coroner comes back with a hair sample, a fingerprint and a DNA sample in the form of semen. An eye-witness comes out of the woodwork and identifies the boy, the girl, the time when they both entered the park where the body was found, and the time when the boy left that park alone. All of the evidence points to the boy. He confesses.

Had the father told the truth? NO
Had the father lied? NO

Lies are based on the teller's perspective of events. Truths are based on what really happened. Sometimes lies are closer to the truth than truthful statements are.

Consider the application of this in politics.
Consider the application of this in religion.

We have to come up with a new word for the polar opposite of lying OR a new word for truth... Whereby fact does not equal truth nor vice versa.

Discuss?
 
The father was in no position to make a valid statement as to his kids innocence or guilt unless he'd been there. He offered an opinion.
 
In order to tell a lie, one must first know the truth. Without knowledge of the truth, a lie cannot be told, and the statement is relegated to just being bullshit. ;)
 
What the father offered was a perspective. He made a conclusion based on incomplete information. He is also human, therefore fallable.
 
I like Gato's take. I think you do have to know the truth to lie.

Truth however
can be
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subjective. Have you ever heard two people describe what you would not suspect was the same event if you didn't know in advance? They're both telling the "truth" as they know it. Absolute truths OTOH, like the kid killing the girl, sometimes they're easier, sometimes harder.
 
Gato_Solo said:
In order to tell a lie, one must first know the truth. Without knowledge of the truth, a lie cannot be told, and the statement is relegated to just being bullshit. ;)
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I agree...
 
Professur said:
Bish, you're confusing Truth and Fact.
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No...actually, I believe that pretty much everyone confuses the two, because in our language, the two are equivilated.

Someone says something. It can be truth, lie or truthful opinion or untruthful opinion. Even fact is subject to the 'truth or lie' measurement
 
MrBishop said:
No...actually, I believe that pretty much everyone confuses the two, because in our language, the two are equivilated.

Someone says something. It can be truth, lie or truthful opinion or untruthful opinion. Even fact is subject to the 'truth or lie' measurement
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No, in our language, they're not. That's why there's two different words for them. People misuse them, as equivelant. That's because stupid people are allowed to breed. I'll not get into other misuses of language perpetrated by the same stupid people.
 
Here's how it works. I can talk to you for hours, and never tell you an untrue fact. But, regardless, if my intent was to convince you of something untrue, I have still lied. Similarly, I can tell you a host of facts. But if I'm unsure of the veracity of them, and yet pass them off as true, I have still lied.
I can recount a string of facts that I believe to be true, but aren't, and tell the Truth.
 
Professur said:
Here's how it works. I can talk to you for hours, and never tell you an untrue fact. But, regardless, if my intent was to convince you of something untrue, I have still lied. Similarly, I can tell you a host of facts. But if I'm unsure of the veracity of them, and yet pass them off as true, I have still lied.
I can recount a string of facts that I believe to be true, but aren't, and tell the Truth.
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I disagree. Let's say you went out last night, and had a few drinks. This is, of course, truth. You get stopped by a policeman, and he asks you if you've been drinking. You say no. This is a lie. You know you had some beer.

Same scenario, but , this time, somebody spiked your cola with grain alcohol (flavorless), and you don't know that you had that drink, so you answer to the cop, "no". As far as you know, you had no alcohol, so how could this be classified a lie?
 
Gato_Solo said:
I disagree. Let's say you went out last night, and had a few drinks. This is, of course, truth. You get stopped by a policeman, and he asks you if you've been drinking. You say no. This is a lie. You know you had some beer.

Same scenario, but , this time, somebody spiked your cola with grain alcohol (flavorless), and you don't know that you had that drink, so you answer to the cop, "no". As far as you know, you had no alcohol, so how could this be classified a lie?
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Please read my post again. I've already answered that.
 
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