Things you won't hear in the U.S.

[spike]

Lame. Very lame.

A debate is not furthered by name calling and denigration of the poster. That, however, seems to be the paramount tactic of the liberal base.

Don't agree with the poster? Simply call them a name or question their sanity. Does that bolster the name caller's credibility? Yeah. That does it. In their own eyes; but others, lurkers especially, are watching, shaking their heads, and saying "Tsk, tsk."

Another completely flawed argument. Tactic of the liberal base. Reread the thread and see who started the name calling. You'll find in this and other recent threads that it's actually a tactic of the conservative base.

 

[2minkey]

yawn.

 

[jimpeel]

Another completely flawed argument. Tactic of the liberal base. Reread the thread and see who started the name calling. You'll find in this and other recent threads that it's actually a tactic of the conservative base.

And at what point, pray tell, did I call you a name or question your sanity?

ZOMG! TINFOIL HAT TIME! :cry:

That was your shot across my bow HERE

Read everything by me before that and you will not find a single name called nor anyone's sanity questioned.

I started this thread, and you were doing a pretty good job at refutation; but you let others get your goat and you rolled it over on me.

Yes, the thread title was rhetorical but you took it to the literal. If you read what I wrote in the thread header you would know that. Now, either you are playing dumb (which I doubt), or you are simply trying to stir the pot. Everyone else here seems to know what I meant.

 

[spike]

You started your "Lib" insults here. I'd have been more than happy to keep the conversation factual but you jumped off that bus.


What with the deleted posts now?

 

[jimpeel]

You started your "Lib" insults here. I'd have been more than happy to keep the conversation factual but you jumped off that bus.


What with the deleted posts now?

First of all, I do not consider political labels "name calling". You are obviously a Liberal and I am obviously a Conservative. Nothing wrong with that.

Being that you called my post "Lib insults" I guess you are insulted by being a Liberal. I am sorry to hear that. I, on the other hand, wear the label Conservative proudly.

Secondly, the deleted post was to Cerise on post #36 but I chose to withdraw the comment. What business is that of yours?

 

[spike]

First of all, I do not consider political labels "name calling". You are obviously a Liberal and I am obviously a Conservative. Nothing wrong with that.

Nowhere in that post did you call me a Lib so obviously that's not the issue.

You degraded things into saying Libs don't have the God-given sense while you talked about your non-existent trend. At that point you've started throwing about ridiculous insults which it seems you don't like when they're directed at you.

 

[Gato_Solo]

Hmmm...I wonder if this is something important...

 

[spike]

"The latest 'revised strategy' is a desperate attempt by an administration that has not accepted the political and economic realities of this war and they have definitely not communicated that reality to the American people," he said

Right on.

 

[jimpeel]

Right on.

Nice cherry-picking; but you left this part out which is germaine to this thread.

The former top commander of coalition forces in Iraq may have called U.S. efforts there catastrophically flawed and unrealistically optimistic, but much of the criticism of the media by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez has been left unreported.

In his speech to the Military Reporters and Editors Association in Washington, D.C., on Friday, Sanchez accused reporters of "unscrupulous reporting, solely focused on supporting an agenda and preconceived notions of the U.S. military."

Without naming a specific company, Sanchez said "parent media organizations" have political agendas that direct the news coverage of the war and in some cases put U.S. service members in deadly situations.

"What is clear to me is that you are perpetuating the corrosive partisan politics that is destroying our country and killing our service members who are at war. My assessment is that your profession, to some, has strayed from these ethical standards and allowed external agendas to manipulate what the American public sees on TV, reads in newspapers and what they see on the Web," Sanchez said.

I guess they like to feather their nest.

 

[jimpeel]

Nowhere in that post did you call me a Lib so obviously that's not the issue.

You degraded things into saying Libs don't have the God-given sense while you talked about your non-existent trend. At that point you've started throwing about ridiculous insults which it seems you don't like when they're directed at you.

Nice painting. Where did you get that lovely broad brush? You failed to qualify what I REALLY said which was:

I have the God given good sense to know indubitably that there will be deaths in a war. Apparently some Libs don't;

By your own inference, you lump yourself into that group even though you admit that I never did so.

Try reading for comprehension next time; and yes, that was a dig at you personally -- the first in this thread and truthful in its observations -- so now you may respond in kind without enmity.

 

[jimpeel]

By the by. Here is some good news out of Iraq.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301681,00.html

Shiite Leader Makes Reconciliatory Gesture, Visits Sunni Anbar Province
Sunday, October 14, 2007

BAGHDAD — In a major reconciliatory gesture, a leader from Iraq's largest Shiite party paid a rare visit Sunday to the Sunni Anbar province, where he delivered a message of unity to tribal sheiks who have staged a U.S.-backed revolt against Al Qaeda militants in their region.

The visit by Ammar al-Hakim, son and heir apparent of Iraq's top Shiite politician, provided the latest evidence that key Iraqi politicians may be working toward national reconciliation independently from Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's government, which has faced criticism for doing little to iron out differences between the country's Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis.

Sunni Arab Vice President Tariq al-Hashemi visited Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, Iraq's top Shiite cleric, last month at the holy city of Najaf south of Baghdad. The visit amounted to an unprecedented Sunni Arab endorsement of al-Sistani's role as the nation's guardian.

Al-Hashemi's Iraqi Islamic Party also has been distancing itself from militant Sunni Arab groups and has in recent months forged closer ties with al-Hakim's Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council, the country's largest Shiite party, and the two major Kurdish parties.

Iraq's Shiite account for about 60 percent of Iraq's population, while the Sunni Arabs and the mostly Sunni Kurds combine for most of the remainder.

On Sunday, al-Hakim struck a note of national unity in Anbar, where a tribal revolt has significantly reduced violence in the vast province and inspired similar anti-Al Qaeda uprisings elsewhere in central Iraq and Baghdad.

Al-Maliki's government has grudgingly supported the uprisings, but has expressed concern that the news Sunni militias must operate under its control.

"Iraq does not belong to the Sunnis or the Shiites alone; nor does it belong to the Arabs or the Kurds and Turkomen," al-Hakim, who is being groomed to take over the helm at the Supreme Council, told his hosts in the provincial capital Ramadi, 115 kilometers (70 miles) west of Baghdad.

"Today, we must stand up and declare that Iraq is for all Iraqis," said al-Hakim, son of Abdul-Aziz al-Hakim, who was diagnosed with cancer last May and has been receiving chemotherapy treatment in neighboring Iran.

"We stand together in one trench to defeat Iraq's enemies," al-Hakim said, with his host, leader of the Anbar movement Ahmed Abu Risha standing next to him.

The movement's founder and Abu Risha's brother, Sheik Abdul-Sattar Abu Risha, was killed in a bombing on Sept. 13.

Al-Hakim later led officials from his party and dozens of Anbar sheiks in prayer, a significant display of religious unity.

Al-Hakim's visit to Anbar is a landmark event given the sectarian tensions that have bedeviled Iraqi politics since the 2003 overthrow of Saddam Hussein's Sunni-led regime. Violence between Shiites and Sunnis, much of which is blamed on militias linked to major Shiite parties as well as Sunni insurgents, has claimed thousands of lives in the past two years alone.

SIIC is the closest of Iraq's Shiite parties to Iran, a fellow majority Shiite nation that is anathema to the Sunni Arabs and Iraq's enemy in a ruinous 1980-88 war.

The Supreme Council was founded in Iran in the early 1980s and the al-Hakims lived in Tehran for close to two decades before they returned home soon after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.

A notorious Shiite militia, the Badr Brigade, is affiliated with the Supreme Council and is blamed for the assassination of Sunni Saddam loyalists and hard-line clerics. The man thought to be its leader, lawmaker Amer al-Saadi, was in Ramadi Sunday with al-Hakim.

Iraq's Shiites and Sunnis are at sharp odds over a host of major issues and the visit by al-Hakim, who wears clerical robes and a black turban, to the Sunni heartland could create goodwill, but may not be enough to resolve differences.

The visit, which received wide local media coverage, may have been motivated in part by the young leader's wish to leave his mark as he proceeds to establish his credentials as the de facto leader of the senior party in parliament's largest bloc, the Shiite United Iraqi Alliance.

 

[spike]

Try reading for comprehension next time; and yes, that was a dig at you personally -- the first in this thread and truthful in its observations -- so now you may respond in kind without enmity.

Now, even though I've had to point out some dickhead CON'S mistaken reading comprehension already in this thread and I never grouped myself anywhere (just pointed out they busted out inults first) that asshole dumbass hypocrit will return to the insult well once again right after they whine about it.

That would leave SOME idiot CON without a point yet again.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

dickhead CON'S (just pointed out they busted out inults first) asshole dumbass hypocrit insult whine

idiot CON

. . . and your point is . . . ?

 

[spike]

That there is no point. Believe I mentioned that.

 

[BeardofPants]

Y'all can't debate w/out name-calling? For shame.
*Feels like elementary school all over again

 

[Cerise]

Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark.

ALL ARE VICTIMS OF THE MASSIVE AGENDA DRIVEN COMPETITION FOR ECONOMIC OR POLITICAL SUPREMACY. THE DEATH KNELL OF YOUR ETHICS HAS BEEN ENABLED BY YOUR PARENT ORGANIZATIONS WHO HAVE CHOSEN TO ALIGN THEMSELVES WITH POLITICAL AGENDAS. WHAT IS CLEAR TO ME IS THAT YOU ARE PERPETUATING THE CORROSIVE PARTISAN POLITICS THAT IS DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY AND KILLING OUR SERVICEMEMBERS WHO ARE AT WAR.

MY ASSESSMENT IS THAT YOUR PROFESSION, TO SOME EXTENT, HAS STRAYED FROM THESE ETHICAL STANDARDS AND ALLOWED EXTERNAL AGENDAS TO MANIPULATE WHAT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC SEES ON TV, WHAT THEY READ IN OUR NEWSPAPERS AND WHAT THEY SEE ON THE WEB. FOR SOME OF YOU, JUST LIKE SOME OF OUR POLITICIANS, THE TRUTH IS OF LITTLE TO NO VALUE IF IT DOES NOT FIT YOUR OWN PRECONCIEVED NOTIONS, BIASES AND AGENDAS.

http://www.militaryreporters.org/sanchez_101207.html

 

[spike]

Nice cherry-picking; but you left this part out which is germaine to this thread.

No shit if the MSM wasn't so biased towards the right wing agenda everyone would know that:


"The latest 'revised strategy' is a desperate attempt by an administration that has not accepted the political and economic realities of this war and they have definitely not communicated that reality to the American people,"

 

[2minkey]

there's enough pabulum in this thread to feed a thousand babies for a million years.

 

[jimpeel]

I have proven over and over that there is this bias wherein the MSM will dwell on the negative and ignore the positive.

I have shown that there are people at the topmost positions in the military who agree that this agenda is killing Americans.

I have posted links to MSM journalists admitting in their own voice that they do not think that positive news is "newsworthy".

My point is proven although there are those who will disagree. We will just have to agree to disagree but they might even disagree with that.

As to the thread title, it was rhetorical in its premise but factual in the thread. I once titled a thread on another posting board "Man shoots soda jerk". In actuality, he shot some jerk who was wielding a soda as a weapon and had beaten him unconscious with it. Rhetorical title, factual thread.

To those who get all hung up on the thread title I have one piece of advise. Get over it.

 

[jimpeel]

Sanchez Blasts Media, But Media Only
Notice His Criticism of Bush

The news media "eagerly reported" comments from General Ricardo Sanchez, the former top commander in Iraq, "calling the war in Iraq a quote 'nightmare with no end in sight,'" FNC's Brit Hume noted Monday night before pointing out how "there has been considerably less reporting of his harsh criticism of the press in the same speech." Indeed, in his Friday address to a group of journalists, Sanchez regretted how "tactically insignificant events have become strategic defeats for America because of the tremendous power and impact of the media" and scathingly asserted that reporters "are perpetuating the corrosive partisan politics that is destroying our country and killing our service members who are at war." Sanchez also charged: "For some of you, just like some of our politicians, the truth is of little to no value if it does not fit your own pre-conceived notions, biases and agendas."

Not surprisingly, that deprecatory view of the media did not interest journalists over the weekend. The NBC Nightly News, for instance, ran a full story Friday night on Sanchez's comments critical of Bush officials, but didn't mention what he said about the news media. CNN's Wolf Blitzer led the 7pm EDT hour of Friday's The Situation Room with how "Ricardo Sanchez says 'America is living a nightmare with no end in sight.' That's a direct quote. And he's sharply critical of U.S. strategy with stinging judgment of government officials." The critique of the media didn't come up in the segment with Pentagon reporter Jamie McIntyre. Saturday's front page New York Times article, "Ex-Commander Says Iraq Effort Is 'a Nightmare,'" ignored the media angle while front page story in Saturday's Washington Post, "Ex-Commander In Iraq Faults War Strategy," didn't refer to the scolding of the media until the very last paragraph.

The October 13 New York Times article: www.nytimes.com

Saturday's Good Morning America, however, briefly alluded to Sanchez's negative words for the news media, though "IRAQ WAR 'NIGHTMARE'; Ex-General Blasts War Effort" remained on screen as reporter Miguel Marquez related: "Sanchez blasted the media. He even recalled words that were used to describe him in reports during his tenure." Sanchez: "'Dictatorial and somewhat dense,' a 'liar,' a 'torturer,' 'does not get it.'" But that was it, nothing about his broader take on the negative impact of the overall media coverage of the war.

News reader Ron Claiborne set up Marquez's the story: "Strong words from retired Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez who, in a scathing speech, became the highest-ranking former general to criticize the Bush administration's handling of the war in Iraq."

On Friday night, NBC anchor Brian Williams announced: "Some surprisingly harsh words today from the former top U.S. commander in Iraq, the first man to hold that job, in fact. Retired Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez turned on the Bush administration, accusing it of a failure in Iraq."

Pentagon reporter Jim Miklaszewski explained how Sanchez "claims that...the U.S. strategy in Iraq was doomed to fail. And in a scathing speech today, Sanchez blamed the civilian leadership at the top." Though "Sanchez acknowledged the military made mistakes," he, "without naming names, put the lion's share of the blame on the National Security Council, the President's top foreign policy advisors."

The very last paragraph of the October 13 Washington Post front page story by Josh White acknowledged: "Sanchez opened by criticizing the U.S. news media, saying he was unfairly labeled 'a liar' and 'a torturer' because of the Abu Ghraib scandal, and he alleged that the media have lost their sense of ethics. He said that members of the media blow stories out of proportion and are unwilling to correct mistakes, and that the 'media environment is doing a great disservice to the nation.'" See: www.washingtonpost.com

[This item was posted Monday night on the MRC's blog, NewsBusters.org: newsbusters.org ]

Hume's "Grapevine" item in full on the October 15 Special Report with Brit Hume on FNC:

"The media eagerly-reported comments by former top commander of coalition forces in Iraq, General Ricardo Sanchez, calling the war in Iraq a quote "nightmare with no end in sight." There has been considerably less reporting of his harsh criticism of the press in the same speech which was made Friday to military reporters and editors. Some examples, quote:
'Over the course of this war, tactically insignificant events have become strategic defeats for America because of the tremendous power and impact of the media and by extension you the journalist. In many cases the media has unjustly destroyed the individual reputations and careers of those involved,' end quote.
'You are perpetuating the corrosive partisan politics that is destroying our country and killing our service members who are at war.
'For some of you, just like some of our politicians, the truth is of little to no value if it does not fit your own pre-conceived notions, biases and agendas,' end quote Ricardo Sanchez."

A NewsBusters post has the text of the news media portion of Sanchez's October 12 remarks before a conference in Arlington, Virginia of the association of Military Reporters and Editors: newsbusters.org

The Web site for the group, which dubs itself "the official association of military journalists," has the text of the entire address: www.militaryreporters.org

The MRC's Brad Wilmouth corrected the closed-captioning against the video for the NBC and ABC stories quoted above:

# NBC Nightly News, October 12:

BRIAN WILLIAMS: Some surprisingly harsh words today from the former top U.S. commander in Iraq, the first man to hold that job, in fact. Retired Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez turned on the Bush administration, accusing it of a failure in Iraq. NBC News Pentagon correspondent Jim Miklaszewski is with us tonight for more on this story. Jim, good evening.

JIM MIKLASZEWSKI: Good evening, Brian. Sanchez is the highest-ranking former top U.S. military commander in Iraq to openly criticize the war, and today clearly laid the blame squarely on the White House. Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez took command of all U.S. forces in Iraq only two months after the fall of Baghdad. Now retired, he claims that even by then the U.S. strategy in Iraq was doomed to fail. And in a scathing speech today, Sanchez blamed the civilian leadership at the top.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL RICARDO SANCHEZ: Who will demand accountability for the failure of our national political leadership involved in the management of this war? They have unquestionably been derelict in the performance of their duty.
MIKLASZEWSKI: Sanchez acknowledged the military made mistakes, but, without naming names, put the lion's share of the blame on the National Security Council, the President's top foreign policy advisors.
SANCHEZ: In my profession, these types of leaders would immediately be relieved or court-martialed.
MIKLASZEWSKI: But Sanchez had his own problems. He was caught up in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, and although he was cleared of any involvement, the scandal cost him a fourth star, and he was forced to retire. Still, Sanchez predicted today that even the current surge strategy in Iraq is headed for failure.
SANCHEZ: The best approach we can do with this flawed approach is stave off defeat.
MIKLASZEWSKI: Pentagon officials had no comment tonight, but some suggest Sanchez is clearly bitter over his forced retirement. Nevertheless, others believed that the facts on the ground in Iraq seemed to support much of the criticism that Sanchez laid out today, Brian.

# ABC's Good Morning America, October 13:

RON CLAIBORNE, 7:02am live feed: Strong words from retired Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez who, in a scathing speech, became the highest-ranking former general to criticize the Bush administration's handling of the war in Iraq. ABC's Miguel Marquez is in Baghdad with more. Good morning, Miguel.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ: Good morning, Ron. It was a blistering speech from an unlikely source, the General who used to run things here. It was particularly odd in the timing of it because the administration had some of the best news out of Iraq recently in years. Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez was top U.S. commander here for one year. In an angry, and at times personal, speech about the news media and politics of war, he did not hold his fire. He says the latest plan for Iraq, the surge, will not work.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL RICARDO SANCHEZ: From a catastrophically flawed, unrealistically optimistic war plan, to the administration's latest surge strategy, this administration has failed to employ and synchronize its political, economic and military power.
MARQUEZ: During his tenure, we saw the capture of Saddam Hussein, the handing over of sovereignty to Iraqis and the scandal of U.S. guards abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison. Sanchez blasted the media. He even recalled words that were used to describe him in reports during his tenure.
SANCHEZ: "Dictatorial and somewhat dense," a "liar," a "torturer," "does not get it."
MARQUEZ: Sanchez was criticized not only by the media, but by some in the Pentagon as well who felt he was in over his head as the commanding General of all U.S. forces in Iraq. The biggest problem with Iraq policy, says Sanchez, decisions about it are based on partisan politics.
SANCHEZ: There has been a glaring unfortunate display of incompetent strategic leadership within our national leaders. As a Japanese proverb says, action without vision is a nightmare. There is no question that America is living a nightmare with no end in sight.
MARQUEZ: Wow, it is just an amazing speech at this particular time. Sanchez retired a year ago under a cloud of controversy because of his part in the Abu Ghraib prison. He called himself another victim of Abu Ghraib. It should also be noted that he is currently writing a book.

...

CLAIBORNE, 7:32am: A former top U.S. general in Iraq is criticizing the war as a nightmare with no end in sight. Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez says the current surge is a desperate attempt, his words, to make up for years of mistakes, but he says America has no choice but to continue our effort in Iraq.