This is, too...

Gato_Solo

Gato_Solo

Out-freaking-standing OTC member
My property, my rights?

If you don't like smoke, stay away from smokers. If you go to a place where smokers are known to habituate, you have no right to complain. Before you say what someone can, or cannot, do on his/her own property, where will it stop?
 
What the law that is soon to be put in effect over here says (if I remember correctly) is that any establishment open to the public should be smoke-free. If anyone is welcome to enter, they should be able to do so without being exposed smoke. If it is a private club that requires membership it's another story.
 
Starya said:
What the law that is soon to be put in effect over here says (if I remember correctly) is that any establishment open to the public should be smoke-free. If anyone is welcome to enter, they should be able to do so without being exposed smoke. If it is a private club that requires membership it's another story.
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But the main topic of the article is correct. You as a consumer choose to go where you wish. If you don't like it, you can always go elsewhere. The business, OTOH, belongs to the owner. He should decide whether his place is smoke-free or not. The government should have no say what-so-ever in what a business does unless it effects the world outside his establishment. Cigarette smoking does not affect the world outside his establishment. It's a personal business, so it should be a personal choice. How'd you like me to come to your place, and tell you that you can't have a stereo because I do not like your choice in music? Or tell you that you can't eat tofu because I do not like the smell of tofu. Even better...I have allergies, and certain perfumes and colognes cause a reaction, so you are no longer allowed to wear that perfume or cologne. Second hand smoke may cause cancer. Those colognes and perfumes do cause a bad reaction.
 
Gato. my friend, you're living in the past. Don't you know that they are in charge & your rights are there only to accomodate them? Private property, how gauche.
 
Smoking may cause cancer. It does cause physical discomfort for many, and will give some really bad reactions.

Consumers don't always have a lot to choose from either. If there are three bars in my town and there is smoking in all of them, I don't have much of a choice. Ihave to stay at home every bloody night unless I want sore eyes, a sore throat accessorised by wheesing, and a headache. And I'm not even allergic..
 
Starya said:
Smoking may cause cancer. It does cause physical discomfort for many, and will give some really bad reactions.

Consumers don't always have a lot to choose from either. If there are three bars in my town and there is smoking in all of them, I don't have much of a choice. Ihave to stay at home every bloody night unless I want sore eyes, a sore throat accessorised by wheesing, and a headache. And I'm not even allergic..
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But why should those bars change their format, which seems to be working, to accomodate only one person...you? I don't think you're grasping the entire picture because it doesn't seem to affect you. Lousy choices, or not, you still have a choice. You can always ask the bar owner if he can go no-smoking...and, if his business doesn't go down the crapper, others would follow. What you are saying is that, because you aren't happy with the choices you have, then everybody has to change to accomodate you. That is selfish, and that is wrong. If I open a place that allows smoking, and I risk my money and time to attract the best talent, then why should I change my whole club just because you don't like smoking? Now, I'll admit that there are more non-smokers than smokers, and I'll even admit that opening a smoke-free club would be a good idea, but, gosh-darn it, I just don't want to. Too bad for you. Find another place. You don't have to come here. If I come to your place, I must respect your rules. When you come to my place, you must respect mine.
 
I recently heard mentioned that bars etc in New York had to ban smoking a year ago or so. Did their businesses go down the crapper?
 
Starya said:
I recently heard mentioned that bars etc in New York had to ban smoking a year ago or so. Did their businesses go down the crapper?
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Some did. Others ignored the ban, some got waivers, and others went private. :shrug: That's not "big news" anymore, because most people didn't give a rat's ass as long as it wasn't directed at them...Now back on topic...how about it. I go to your house, and you are no longer allowed to wear perfume because I will get sick...Don't worry...I won't light up because your place is no-smoking...
 
My house ain't open to the public, so that's irellevant. Btw I don't wear perfume, so come here and I'll give ya a big hug..
 
Starya said:
My house ain't open to the public, so that's irellevant. Btw I don't wear perfume, so come here and I'll give ya a big hug..
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You still missed the point...CLub owners have a right to have smoking in their clubs, private or not. Just as you have a right to go to any club you wish, and, if you don't like the atmosphere, you can go someplace else.
 
And I don't agree that they should have that right if it is open for everyone. (Not to mention the poor sods who work there.)
 
Starya said:
And I don't agree that they should have that right if it is open for everyone. (Not to mention the poor sods who work there.)
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So you advocate total government control on all business? That, in a nutshell, is what's happening. Governments make lousy business owners...just as military forces make lousy police. Free-market eonomies, like the US and Canada, survive because government is not in control. You have freedom because you own what you have, and you can do what you will with it...within reason. Banning smoking is just making a pariah out of smokers...As for second-hand smoke, it still hasn't proven to be a cause of lung cancer. Those percentages they throw up there citing second-hand smoke as the cause is nothing more than pure fancy. I say the state of New York is wrong for the ban, and you are wrong for supporting it. You have a choice as to where you can go. That choice has not been taken away, so you don't see it as a bad thing. The owners of businesses that cater to the public..and smokers are also part of the public...have had something taken away. Let's go back to the stereo, since you don't wear perfume...

You paid for your stereo, you paid for your music, and you paid for the space you listen to the music in. The state decides that your music is not socially acceptable to listen to, so now you are not permitted to listen to your music. Not only that, but niether are your neighbors nor friends. How do you feel?
 
Starya said:
Well I'm in Norway, and quite happy to support the ban we have over here. :)
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So if the nations health administration decides that some music advocates suicide, and need sto be banned, you'd happily go along with that, too? How about if the music advocated risky behavior of any kind, and was banned?
 
hehe, sorry dude, you can cry about the music all you like, but I can't be bothered as I don't consider that and smoke comparable (if that's even a word) in any way.

I'd like to see someone get allergic reactions to Mortiis tho. :lol:
 
Starya said:
hehe, sorry dude, you can cry about the music all you like, but I can't be bothered as I don't consider that and smoke comparable (if that's even a word) in any way.

I'd like to see someone get allergic reactions to Mortiis tho. :lol:
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Okay...Since I now know that you may not get exactly what I'm saying, I'll give you an example...

1. You own a business that is open to the public. Since you wish to make it something tangible, Let's say that it's a pizzaria.
2. The government decides that, for health reasons, pepperoni is no longer healthy because the pepperoni contains too much cholesterol.
3. People who frequent your pizzeria come there for pepperoni pizza, and nobody has asked you, personally, to change your recipe.
4. The loss of pepperoni causes your restaurant to lose, on average, 30% of your business.

Question...Do you petition your government to allow the re-introduction of pepperoni?
 
Answer: I don't bother considering "what if"-scenarios that are incredible unrealistic. The day pepperoni is proven to cause discomfort or health problems to the people at other tables, I'll get back to you.
 
Starya said:
Answer: I don't bother considering "what if"-scenarios that are incredible unrealistic. The day pepperoni is proven to cause discomfort or health problems to the people at other tables, I'll get back to you.
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That same argument was used when tobacco companies first said smoking was safe, BTW, so you still have to answer the question...

It's exactly the same idea, though. Pepperoni has a lot of cholesterol, which is proven to cause heart disease. Pepperoni also gives some people gas. I pay taxes into medicare and medicaid, so those people eating pepperoni cause me discomfort both physically, from their flatulence, and monetarily.
 
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