Too bad, so sad

[Mirlyn]

If by privilege to health care you mean mandated by pain of jail and enforced by the IRS, then we agree health care is privilege. -- slavery is freedom.

Nice try, but you don't have to put words in my mouth. By privilege I mean the privilege to go into debt for treating an asthmatic child, or removing a gall bladder. I can do everything I can to treat things at home, and live as healthy as possible, but there are some things out of my control. Maybe its just my responsibility to die if I can't fix myself? Survival of the fittest seems a bit archaic.

Usually that depends on how you're shoe'd, local laws may vary. Gee, what freedoms your local government allows.

Thanks. I'm not sure other municipalities differ much on allowing horses, though. For the record, the nearest bus stop is 3 miles away, and the last nearest connector stop is at 6pm. The optional vehicle just practically isn't. So why does the government treat me like a possible criminal?

 

[Mirlyn]

You don't have to drive thus no need for car insurance. You DO have to have health insurance, well unless you opt out.

Whats the alternative now? They just go get fixed on your dime?

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Medical bills get expensive, having diabetes I find it can become very expensive periodically. I have to spend a little more on food to get stuff that my body can process easier. Yeah, I get tired of having to buy all that food too.

HEY!! -- Maybe my new health care can provide a prescription for those more expensive food that are healthier for me. You know, as preventive medicine.

I think the government should just provide me food all the time. Why should I have to pay for the privilege to eat when I have other bills to pay? (I sure could use a new hard-drive right now) Fucking grocers, making a profit on a basic necessity of life.... we need a law, lets declare war on evil grocery industry.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Whats the alternative now? They just go get fixed on your dime?

and therein lies the real issue. Thanks to the nanny state: You do not need to have car insurance unless you want to drive a car. You MUST pay for health care as long as your sucking air.

It funny. In this day there's really not much you can do and be productive without having to answer to and pay a fee for the privilege to do so.

 

[Mirlyn]

Medical bills get expensive, having diabetes I find it can become very expensive periodically. I have to spend a little more on food to get stuff that my body can process easier. Yeah, I get tired of having to buy all that food too.

HEY!! -- Maybe my new health care can provide a prescription for those more expensive food that are healthier for me. You know, as preventive medicine.

I think the government should just provide me food all the time. Why should I have to pay for the privilege to eat when I have other bills to pay? (I sure could use a new hard-drive right now) Fucking grocers, making a profit on a basic necessity of life.... we need a law, lets declare war on evil grocery industry.

Last time I checked, there are no regulations on growing your own basic necessity of life. You can't grow your own healthcare.

My examples were specific to potential time-sensitive and life-threatening issues that modern medicine can often easily and quickly address. That is, if you have the ability to pay. You have no choice. Die or suffer, or get it looked at.

I pay for the privlege to wait in line at the ER, the privlege to argue over copays and deductibles, and the privlege to wrestle with the insurance provider to decide whether my treatment was deemed "medically necessary" as determined by their definition. And for what? To pay the ONLY hospital here who can see me in 15 minutes? To pay the ONLY hospital who has the latest and greatest 20million dollar color MRI machine to take 4D pictures of my broken big toe? Yes its a business, but its not driven by the same supply/demand cost ratio traditional businesses are working on. I'm not calling them evil. They are living off insurance money. Just like body shops are offering concierge, live webcams showing your car getting repaired, and free loaners. Its not the consumers paying for those services, its insurance money. Wonder why cars are so easily totalled these days? What happens next, both with the current gov plans and with current insurance....people become totalled?

Look, I'm not for this healthcare plan (it doesn't address my concern over rising costs or offer a public option), but something has to be done. If its not the government's responsibility, who has the power to do something about it? Its not like I can shop somewhere else. I have the choice of ONE hospital out of four in this city. If I were to get critically injured in a car crash, I am easily looking at 10k for the first hour in the ER. I can't grow that myself, or shop at the dollar store, or buy my cheapass bandaids from WalMart.

 

[Mirlyn]

and therein lies the real issue. Thanks to the nanny state: You do not need to have car insurance unless you want to drive a car. You MUST pay for health care as long as your sucking air.

It funny. In this day there's really not much you can do and be productive without having to answer to and pay a fee for the privilege to do so.

So you're for the status quo? You're for paying for uninsured people anyway?

 

[ResearchMonkey]

No, I'm not for the status quo. I'd like to see an open market, tort reform and some of the other ideas that never got any play with bill. Being that I'm a pre-existing condition that would be nice although I understand the reality of that situation. I accept that as a risk of living in a free society, I take charge to protect my health as best I can. We pay good money for a good plan, it was choice we made long ago and have paid into for well over a decade.

The bottom line is simple; government cannot and does not provide freedom, it can only reduce it or protect it. This bill reduces it, that's a failure to protect it, which is the purpose of the constitutional powers.

We have way too many laws that are anti-freedom.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Last time I checked, there are no regulations on growing your own basic necessity of life. You can't grow your own healthcare.

So how much food has your garden provided this winter? Enough to live on? I'd say 2 weeks of snow would become time sensitive in most gardens.

Yeah Mir, I get your point. I'm just saying the nanny state sux. The entire argument used for health care can be used on many points of persons life. I'm not against helping others, in fact I help other more often than you might think from my mean-ol'-online-persona. The government is not the answer, it is a big part of the problem.

 

[Gonz]

I do. Is there a state that does not require insurance?

Are you talking about auto insurance?

 

[Mirlyn]

No, I'm not for the status quo. I'd like to see an open market, tort reform and some of the other ideas that never got any play with bill. Being that I'm a pre-existing condition that would be nice although I understand the reality of that situation. I accept that as a risk of living in a free society, I take charge to protect my health as best I can. We pay good money for a good plan, it was choice we made long ago and have paid into for well over a decade.

The bottom line is simple; government cannot and does not provide freedom, it can only reduce it or protect it. This bill reduces it, that's a failure to protect it, which is the purpose of the constitutional powers.

We have way too many laws that are anti-freedom.

Unfortunately, there is no complete bill. The voted-on beginning of a solution is far from ideal. It only forces more people to pay into a pool, which on paper may temporarily reduce our insurance costs (more income for the pool), but still does nothing to keep the actual problem of medical costs in check.

We too have decided to pay for the best coverage, but in the past five years the coverage has gone drastically downhill while the costs have gone uphill. Again, you're paying for a service that has no real consumer price elasticity of demand. Even with the so-called provider write-offs....

Once we address that problem, we may be able to resolve the problems of many. Perhaps this bill (whenever they finish it) is a start. Perhaps its a start in the wrong direction. Only time will tell.

So how much food has your garden provided this winter? Enough to live on? I'd say 2 weeks of snow would become time sensitive in most gardens.

Yeah Mir, I get your point. I'm just saying the nanny state sux. The entire argument used for health care can be used on many points of persons life. I'm not against helping others, in fact I help other more often than you might think from my mean-ol'-online-persona. The government is not the answer, it is a big part of the problem.

The new raised bed is going in the ground today, actually. Right now seedlings are growing in the basement. I'd like to try winter gardening.

 

[Mirlyn]

Are you talking about auto insurance?

Yes. I'm curious if there are states that don't require at least liability. A quick and dirty google results in those pesky fake-dmv-consulting sites.

 

[Gonz]

Ah, my mistake. In that case, don't drive. Problem solved.

 

[catocom]

Ah, my mistake. In that case, don't drive. Problem solved.

at least on public roads.
There's some pretty big private spreads aroung here. All good there.

 

[Gotholic]

Driver Licensing vs. the Right to Travel

Speaking about driving...

A little summary:

By: Anonymous

The principle of the license itself it NOT unconstitutional in that you need to get one to show that you are of legal age and competent enough to drive a vehicle; in this way your rights are not violated because the license is merely an instrument to show that you know how to drive.

However, your rights are violated when your license, and hence, your right to move about freely (in most cases) is taken from you without due process of law (i.e. it automatically expires and you have to pay a "fee" to reinstate it, it is revoked because you didn't pay child support or because you didn't pay a traffic ticket, etc.) And in answer to John Pennington above, actually there have been several cases. Quotes sited below are from actual cases:

"The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived." Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

"The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579.

"The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment." Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

"The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right." Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938,
at 941.

In short: You have a right to drive; it's not a privilege. Think of it this way: you tax dollars that you work to pay for put the roads into existence for you to drive on. They are not owned by a single person or entity, they are owned by YOU. Therefore, you have the right to use that road. The only time your right to drive should be taken away is if you infringe upon the rights of others (i.e. driving down the road drunk, thereby endangering the lives of others which is a violation of THEIR rights to pursue life and happiness). The license regulations do need to be revised and fixed so that they are no longer unconstitutional.

Source

Laws that say you must have a drivers license in order to drive refer to a "motor vehicle", not "automobile". Those two words have different legal meanings.

There is a clear distinction between an automobile and a motor vehicle. An automobile has been defined as:

"The word `automobile' connotes a pleasure vehicle designed for the transportation of persons on highways." American Mutual Liability Ins. Co., vs. Chaput, 60 A.2d 118, 120; 95 NH 200.
While the distinction is made clear between the two as the courts have stated:
"A motor vehicle or automobile for hire is a motor vehicle, other than an automobile stage, used for the transportation of persons for which remuneration is received." International Motor Transit Co. vs. Seattle, 251 P. 120.

The term `motor vehicle' is different and broader than the word `automobile.'" City of Dayton vs. DeBrosse, 23 NE.2d 647, 650; 62 Ohio App. 232.

The distinction is made very clear in Title 18 USC 31: "Motor vehicle" means every description or other contrivance propelled or drawn by mechanical power and used for commercial purposes on the highways in the transportation of passengers, or passengers and property.

"Used for commercial purposes" means the carriage of persons or property for any fare, fee, rate, charge or other considerations, or directly or indirectly in connection with any business, or other undertaking intended for profit.

Clearly, an automobile is private property in use for private purposes, while a motor vehicle is a machine which may be used upon the highways for trade, commerce, or hire.

Source

 

[valkyrie]

Texas requires liability for operating a motorized vehicle on a public road.

 

[Gonz]

One of the larger missed issues about required auto insurance...

Many (most?) states have a self-insurance clause. If you can prove you have liquid assets valued at X dollars, you are considered insured.

 

[Mirlyn]

One of the larger missed issues about required auto insurance...

Many (most?) states have a self-insurance clause. If you can prove you have liquid assets valued at X dollars, you are considered insured.

You must have 25 vehicles currently registered in your name in KS. At that point you can apply for an audit to get licensed by the Dept of Revenue as being self-insured.

 

[Inkara1]

In California, you can have a $35,000 cash deposit at the DMV or have a DMV-issued self-insurance certificate, which also requires owning 25 cars.

 

[Inkara1]

States get screwed by Obamacare

California's share looks to be $2 billion to $3 billion. Meanwhile, teachers here are being laid off by the truckload because there's no state funding anymore.

 

[ResearchMonkey]

Illegal aliens vote more often then our children in Cali